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75th Anniversary of Pearl Harbor attack

Discussion in 'WWII Today' started by LRusso216, Dec 6, 2016.

  1. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    Read this article.

    The events of the past few minutes coursed through John Anderson's mind like the hellish nightmare that it was. He had been assigned to set up chairs on the ship's main deck for the Sunday worship service. His brother Jake and many others were still sound asleep below deck on that serene morning at Pearl Harbor.

    John initially stared in disbelief when he saw bombs falling on a nearby island.

    http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20161207_Commentary__Salute_the_USS_Arizona_and_the_fallen_of_Dec__7.html?mobi=true
     
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  2. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    Excellent article, Lou. Thanks for posting it.
     
  3. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Thanks for rememering the day too. :poppy:
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    What's all this, then?
     
  5. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Might as well drop this here:

    Teikoku Seifu no Taibei Tsucho Oboegaki (A note to the U.S. by the imperial government) is here: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/411206d.html



    In Japanese here: http://royallibrary.sakura.ne.jp/ww2/text/taibeikakusho.html

    The 14-part message (Teikoku Seifu no Taibei Tsucho Oboegaki) was not a declaration of war. It did not break off negotiations with the US. It was not an ultimatum

    The timing of the delivery of the 14-part message, 1/2 hour before the attack on Pearl Harbor, ensured that it would have no effect on the attack. For a warning to occur based on that message the following events would have had to happen:

    (Note: No parties in Washington would have any idea that there was a deadline looming. FDR could have easily have waited until Monday to make a reply. Yamamoto would have been aware of this possibility.)

    Japan delivers note on time.

    Hull reads note.

    Hull responds to Nomura and Kurusu.

    They reply, etc.

    Hull talks to FDR, explains note.

    FDR correctly interprets this as a war warning.

    FDR advises SecWar and SecNav to alert all forces.

    SecWar and SecNav compose warning message.

    Warning messages are handled through military channels, if available, to all commands.

    Local commanders assimilate warning message and act properly.



    On the other hand, if the US had acceded to every demand in the 14-part message:



    Japan delivers note on time.

    Hull reads note.

    Hull responds to Nomura and Kurusu.

    They reply, etc.

    Hull talks to FDR, explains note.

    FDR agrees to completely change US policy without consulting Congress.

    FDR communicates this to Hull.

    Hull explains things to Nomura and Kurusu.

    They discuss any fuzzy details.

    Nomura and Kurusu return to their embassy to contact Tokyo.

    (Originally they were ordered to destroy all codes, but got permission to retain one low level code.)

    Somehow they get the information to Tokyo.

    Gaimudaijin receives message.

    Foreign Minster interprets message correctly.

    Foreign Minster goes to Prime Minister and explains message.

    Prime Minister contacts SecWar and SecNav, who contact their forces to halt attack.



    In both the above cases you can see that more than 1/2 hour was needed. So the timing issue is just a farce.
     
  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Bonus! The article has overhead views of the ships of the Nagumo Kido Butai. I plan to get a Google Earth shot of Hittokappu Bay and use a drawing of the ships at anchor to make a more visual interesting map.

    Then I have to find a sucker expert to make a diorama from that.
     
  8. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Good link. Japan did appear to describe the history of the negotiations accurately.

    The Japanese had long since passed the point of no return, there was no going back and regardless of how Roosevelt reacted to the message the attack was going to happen. They wanted the break in diplomatic relations to precede the attack only to pay lip service to protocol. They had finally realized the US had no intention of reaching a diplomatic solution and were only trying to buy time before war broke out.

    Hope you haven't watched the History Channel's 75th Anniversary shows on Pearl Harbor, your head would explode. Their programs strongly hinted at the possibility of a conspiracy. But that's what you get with the History Channel these days, more sensationalism, less history.
     
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I don't watch anything about Pearl Harbor on TV. Boss Lady's orders.


    And Teikoku Seifu no Taibei Tsucho Oboegaki did not break diplomatic negotiations. They didn't worry about such niceties. The declaration of war wasn't written until after the Gaimudijin heard of the raid on Pearl.
     
  10. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Smart woman. Your head would have exploded and she'd have been stuck cleaning up the mess. They didn't even do a good job with the uniforms, looks like they got them from a cheap costume shop and the actors/reenactors did a poor job of portraying them. I thought it was pretty clear they were insinuating that there was a US Governmental conspiracy, for a 75th Anniversary commemoration they should have stuck to facts and do a separate show if they wanted to do a "conspiracy theory" show. They could have had it hosted by the ancient aliens guy, you know they probably had a part in the conspiracy also.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The actual events are so powerful and interesting that it baffles me why they'd go and make up shit. I'm still amazed at the raw courage shown on that day, by both sides, even after 50+ years of studying the raid.
     
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  12. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member

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    It's a strange compulsion that people have to change historical events to make them "more" interesting and engaging. I would like to know who the head historians who work for the History Channel are. I have this image in my head of a couple interns who need to complete a homework assignment.
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Start with an agenda, find things that support it. If you don't find enough to fill 42 minutes, make shit up.
     
  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    And be careful not to work to hard on the "find things" part.
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Just steal from previous programs or interview CTers/.
     
  16. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member

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    Yup. Steal some info from poor secondary sources.
     

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