Battle Info Request:- Trooper Robert W Lawson 3rd RTR

I've been investigating my Grandad's role in WW2, as well as his whereabouts before he was killed. He was a trooper in the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment, and so far I have discovered the movements of this regiment around the time he was killed, but I have a few questions which I'm hoping someone out there may be able to help me with.

This is what I know using support from that particular regiment through records held by them>>

The 3 RTR landed in Normandy D+5, i.e. five days after the main landings moving towards Caen. It was in the narrow roads near Villers-Bocage, hemmed in by high hedges and banks, that the 3 RTR saw some of its fiercest fighting. Accustomed to swift open warfare in the desert, the crews of the tank regiments were now being shot at close range. Having survived the ferocity of the claustrophobic fighting of the Bocage, the 3rd RTR now prepared for Operation Epsom, the first attempt to attack the German stronghold of Caen which threatened to hold back the Allied movement out into France and the countries beyond. Operation Epsom was a failure and despite suffering heavy casualties, Caen was not seized. The town was eventually taken from the Germans between the 7th and 9th July 1944 and the Allied tanks were at last free to cross the Orne river and start fighting eastward.

The 3rd RTR took part in the next part of the breakout from Normandy was Operation Goodwood. Between the 18th and 21st July 1944, the Allied forces attempted to thrust out of Caen. Despite initial successes in clearing the German forces out of the surrounding villages, Goodwood finally ground to a halt. The operation had gained seven miles at most at a cost of some 6,000 casualties and nearly 400 tanks.

The main breakthrough happened soon after when the German forces, increasingly stretched, headed south allowing the Allied forces to circle round them and trap them at Falaise. Some 50,000 German soldiers were captured when the Allies finally slammed shut the Falaise Gap, another 10,000 dead.

The 3rd RTR then headed at high speed through France and towards the Belgian border. Encountering resistance virtually all the way, the regiment fought its way into Belgium and continued as far as Antwerp, an important port heavily protected by the Germans. Its importance for supplying equipment to the Allies made its capture a key priority in this phase of the invasion. British forces, including the 3rd RTR finally liberated Antwerp on the 4th September 1944.

With winter approaching, the 11th Armoured Division was sent back behind the lines for rest and a refit of vehicles, with the men of 3rd RTR billeted in the small town of Aarschot near Leuven.

At the end of 1944 the 3rd RTR were rushed to the Ardennes region of south-east Belgium following the German breakthrough of the Allied defences there - the Von Runstedt offensive. The heavy fighting that broke out here came to be known as the Battle of the Bulge. The wintry weather and the difficult hilly terrain made tank warfare in this area especially dangerous. 3rd RTR along with elements of the American 82nd Reconnaissance Battalion were engaged in attacking the leading battlegroup of the German 2nd Panzer Division near the town of Dinant. After protracted fighting the German forces were overwhelmed and 147 German soldiers and their commanding officer were captured.

The 3rd RTR fought into Germany and had reached Flensburg near the German-Danish border when the Germans finally surrendered.

​My question is>>

My Grandad was killed on 29/08/44, and was buried at Mainneville Cemetery in Northeastern France. So was there a battle here where he was killed or was he just buried there as the nearest cemetery. The records above show that Antwerp was liberated on 4th September 1944, six days after he was killed. Looking at the locations of Mainneville and Antwerp that is quite a distance for six days worth of movement, it does not make sense.

Quote: The 3rd RTR then headed at high speed through France and towards the Belgian border. Encountering resistance virtually all the way, the regiment fought its way into Belgium and continued as far as Antwerp.

​Does anyone know what could have happened at Mainneville or somewhere near by? I cannot seem to find anything online to do with battles in this location, though as the quote above states, from France the regiment encountered resistance virtually all the way to Belgium.

I've attached a rough concept of distance>>

 

Javey

I know a reasonable amount about the incident at Mainneville but would need to confirm some aspects - it's a number of years since I've delved into the incident - before I reply in detail. Basically my late father was there at the time, I knew a guy who was also there (he died a few years ago) and information is available from various sources. I also visited the Cemetary a few years ago and have photographs in my archive somewhere! Another Trooper who was there currently lives in Australia but has already divulged all he knows - I can go into kore detail some other time.

What happened was a small skirmish, but with disastrous consequences for 3rd Troop, 'C' Squadron 3RTR. The Troop was entering Mainneville but was fired on by a German Panther tank which knocked out the Sherman Firefly tank commanded by Clifford Remane. There were casualties, including your Grandfather. The Troop Sergeant (Harry Dews) managed to force the Panther to withdraw. The casualties were buried side-by-side in the local Cemetery.

If you want to anticipate my future reply (apologies but it's Saturday and I've got commitments), then Google 'Remane Mainneville' and you should get some information. Similarly do a search for those items on the sister site WW2Talk.com

I hope that gives you enough to keep you going for the time being.

Edit: I've checked a few facts and, while it appears your grandfather was killed in the Mainneville area, we can not assume it was specifically during the incident mentioned above even though there is still a high chance it was during that incident/action. I need to dig deeper into my files.

 

Thanks for your valued enlightenment there, much appreciated. I can start looking up some more areas now. Cheers

 

Hi Javey, do you have Roberts service record? I see from the Casualty Lists at FMP that he must have been injured in '42 as well.

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/world-records/british-army-casualty-lists-1939-1945?firstname=r.%20w.&firstname_variants=true&lastname=lawson

Details at CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2320853/LAWSON,%20ROBERT%20WILLIAM

In case you need the service record, apply here https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/overview

 

Judging by the Headstone Documents Schedule mentioned in the CWGC website, the family, for whatever reason, didn't ask for any additional inscription (compare with Clifford Remanes details). Nothing massively significant in that as it was, I understand, a choice offered at the time.

 

I'll have to check with my mother about his service record as my Dad died June 2016, but he had all of his Dad's war paraphernalia and medals at home.

Yes as far as I'm aware no additional inscription was asked for. In fact my Grandma was told that he was shot returning home, which she just accepted.

This is obviously untrue, they were heading towards Antwerp after he was killed, then the battle of the bulge was to follow late 1944, he would have been involve in that if he had not been killed in action. I'm wondering if this was general army practice for the deceased to spin story lines for what ever reason. Just like Clifford Remane's wife was told that he was shot whilst throwing chocolate out to the children in a nearby village! Again untrue. So many conflicting stories followed.

What I'm trying to work out at the moment is the outlay of the units, building up to my Grandad's death. I'm not military minded and would like to know the following if you can help. Forgive me if some of the questions regarding military machinery sound silly, I am a total novice in this area>>

1. How many soldiers are usually in or on a tank?

2. How many tanks are normally in a squadron?

3. Do you have one Sergeant to a tank, or per so many tanks?

4. Was Sergeant Remane and LC William Oliver killed in the same tank, I know I read Bernstein and Butler managed to get out and escape?

5. I also read that 3 tanks in C Squadron were destroyed, no casualties listed, but Sergeant Remane was in one of the tanks that was destroyed. Was my Grandad in one of the other tanks? If so who was around him?

6. On another note, I was looking at the graves of the 3 killed, which included my Grandad, originally they were knocked up wooden crosses, then they were updated to better looking more formal crosses. Now in both of these pictures my Grandad is positioned far right, third in line, but when the CWGC replaced the crosses with formal headstones the grave numbers changed and he ended up on the middle headstone, or second in line not third. Is this normal for combined burials or not?

 

Javey74

Answers to questions:
1. Five per 75mm Sherman, four per Sherman Firefly
2. At that time I believe 3RTR was three tanks per Troop, five Troops per Squadron plus a Squadron HQ Troop of four tanks - so 19 tanks in total per squadron.
3. Troop Leader was a 2/Lt, second tank was Troop Sergeant, third tank was Troop Corporal.
4. Remane and Oliver were in the same tank
5. I don't know which tank your grandfather was in and, sadly, have no current way of finding out - but will keep digging. They would have been with other tanks (Sgt Harry Dews tank was certainly accompanying Remane) and presumably with accompanying infantry (Kings Shropshire Light Infantry??? Needs validating...).
6. To best of my knowledge (be mindful of that caveat) all three are still in their original resting places. Number of possibilities: confusion about each grave identity, crosses could have fallen over and been replaced in wrong order...etc etc. Note: I vaguely remember seeing an account of the actual burial service somewhere: have you searched WW2Talk Forum? (You could also search there for threads mentioning Eric Clayton...?).

Edit: I've just checked my photocopy of Harry Dews Troop Roll Book and there is, frustratingly, no mention of your grandfather which implies/confirms that he was in another Troop i.e. not 3rd Troop C Squadron.

 

Thanks again for the information, much appreciated once again. I did try the WW2 Talk Forum using the search box and came up with 4 entries all linking back to here>> http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/three-3-rtr-men-in-mainneville-cemetery.60049/#post-694220

The thread had been merged, some member called "Oldleg" asking questions like me about my Grandad and the other 2 (Oliver and Remane). There is a War Diary page photo for the 3 RTR covering the dates at the end, but I find it hard to understand and read for sizing, a little murky.

Also Eric Clayton, one extra entry here>> http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/24th-lancers.37155/page-3#post-663565

Thanks again for your assistance with my questions.

 

Javey74

Harry's Roll Book confirms Remanes crew as Remane/Oliver/Butler/Bernstein so that tidies up an earlier query.

I'm sure I've seen an account of the funeral service somewhere. Vaguely remember the name Montgomery (no, not that one!) somewhere to do with it. Have you searched WW2talk for 'Remane' and then Mainneville as separate search items? I'm wondering if it's in an old email I received from Remanes daughter a number of years ago. Arghhhhh...I hate it when I can't find stuff but know it's out there somewhere.....

 

Ahh so I take it that Remane's crew was in a Sherman Firefly. I'll take another look at the WW2talk as you suggested. Cheers

 

Had another look at the WW2talk and using separate searches as you suggested it comes up with the same linked posts, either yours or Oldlegs, which I've picked through.

 

1. Yes, Remanes tank was a Firefly (Sherman Vc)
2. Your searches on WW2talk confirm, in my mind, that the other information I have about the funeral service is somewhere else in the depths of my archives....let the searching commence...might take some time.....but will do my best.

 

Yes if you find anything else just let me know

Thanks again SDP, you've already done me proud! I'm really thankful to you for taking the time out to help me

 

Just another quick one, looking back at two of your answers, just so I can get my head around this. Does this mean that all of the 5 troops put together, not including the HQ troop, would equate to 15 tanks and you would need>>

5 - 2/Lts for all of the tank No.1s across the squadron
5 - Troop Sergents for all of the tank No.2s across the squadron
5 - Troop Corporals for all of the tank No.3s across the squadron

Then 1 or 2 Troopers to fill the quota of 4 or 5 in each tank depending as you say on the type of tank. Or have I mis-understood?

I hope I haven't confused you.. :unsure:

 

Got it in one! There were exceptions but yes, basically correct.

I've been thinking about your grandfather. I know that Eric Clayton was tank crew and his tank must have been knocked out in the area immediate to Remanes tank because of how he relates the story of Remanes demise in the Banstead web page. Just thinking out loud but I'm wondering if your grandfather was in the same crew as Clayton. I know Clayton was not in Remanes Troop so it all would stack up. If not Clayton tank then possibly the same Troop? Speculative of course but a reasonable basis for some more searching. I will dig out Clayton email address and try to get more information from him: I hope he can help (no contact for a while and tempus fugit and all that).

 

You may have a point there, there is a possibility. I'll let you do your usual magic and as usual I'll be in your debt.

 

Apart from your grandfather, the rest of the guys mentioned so far were all ex-24th Lancers regiment. Note my Avatar! They were transferred to 3RTR when the 24L were disbanded in July 1944. I ran the 24th Lancers Old Comrades Association for many years so have some reasonable contacts still out there: hopefully we will come up with a eureka moment sooner or later.

 

Ahh I see, and yes hopefully that eureka moment will arrive