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Atrocities ww2


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#1 urqh

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 01:27 PM

Found this interesting site if anyone is interested.

On massacres during world war2.

Like all Web sites may have some wrongs and some rights, but its interesting as some of the locations mentioned I had not heared of before.

Also misses some others out.

http://members.iinet.../massacres.html

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#2 De Vlaamse Leeuw

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Posted 06 April 2003 - 04:53 PM

Thanks for the interesting site Urqh!
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#3 TA152

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 08:52 AM

Thanks Urgh, I did not get to read all of the site but the KYUSHU UNIVERSITY ATROCITY really got my attention. The sad thing is most of these events I never heard of before and I read alot about WWII. The one of the Americans killing all the prisoners in Sicly is new to me. Humans sure are a cruel animal.
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#4 urqh

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 09:01 AM

TA, As stated though, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the site, I'd suggest further searches on anything that takes your interest, just like you, I found things on there I had no awareness of.

Some of the other pages linked to on there such as little known facts one are interesting too.

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#5 Leo

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 10:13 AM

Maybe they could have mentioned the role of German Field Marshal Albert Kesselring in the Italian massacres, especially the slaughter of 335 political and Jewish prisoners at Ardeatina Caves in March 1944.
This was carried out in retaliation for the ambush of German troops by Italian partisans.
Although nothing can ever excuse such a massacre, it should be pointed that Kesselring was provoked to some degree by the British, who got the BBC to broadcast messages to Italy urging partisans to shoot German soldiers in the back.

#6 Kai-Petri

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 02:02 PM

Lately I´ve been interested in Warsaw uprising autumn 1944 and I intend to find out how much the Russians were possibly telling the people to take their guns and revolt-and once they did- the Russians didn´t move an inch to help them?!


The reason?:

The Home Army (Armia Krajowa – AK) was an underground organisation operating in the German-occupied Poland during World War II. It was a legal successor to the Polish Army, representing at the same time part of the Polish Armed Forces in the country. The legal authorities of the Polish Republic were represented by the London-based government and president. Stalin did not recognise the London-based government, nor did it maintain any diplomatic relations with them Polish authorities. Instead Stalin supported the establishment of pro-Moscow Polish authorities, the Polish Committee of National Liberation.

Result:
When hostilities ceased, eighty-five percent of the city was razed, and the Polish Home Army annihilated . The Germans deported the remaining population. When the Germans were eventually defeated there were no forces left to oppose Soviet political domination in Poland. ( how surprised Stalin must have been...)

Killed:
( One calculation )
About 18,000 insurgents were killed and 6,000 were seriously wounded during the fighting. Also, over 150,000 civilians perished in consequence of the fighting. The Germans lost about 10,000 in dead and wounded.

http://www.polishres...g/4 Article.htm

-------

The Germans did the killing but I see Stalin as much guilty of the deaths of these Polish people. One huge attrocity to me.

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[ 07. April 2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]
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#7 urqh

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Posted 07 April 2003 - 02:13 PM

Its worth some research Kai, if you have not really had an interest in it before.

From the UK point of view, I think we saw it as one of the major actions of ww2.

The polotics involved behind the scenes was indeed at a high level.

Churchil was furious with Stalin.

Look into the area of supply with particular regard to the attempts by UK to get stuff in by air with the Russians nor ready to assist the allies to do so.

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#8 TA152

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Posted 08 April 2003 - 05:09 AM

Not trying to hijack the thread,but what is that little tracked thing in the second picture, a mini tank ?
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#9 Kai-Petri

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Posted 08 April 2003 - 06:10 AM

That´s the Goliath, light demolition carrier.

http://www.geocities...7/egoliath.html
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#10 De Vlaamse Leeuw

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Posted 08 April 2003 - 07:03 AM

It was one of the surprises the Wehrmacht had for the Allies. But is wastn't small to enough, so it could be seen very easily. Also it could be destroyed by guns and light weapons.
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#11 Guest_patriot_*

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 05:19 AM

kai petri

mmhh, i don't know. let's have a look:

After six months of peaceful evacuation, when only about 60,000 Jews remained in the residential ghetto, the Germans met with an armed rebellion on 18th January, 1943. Manvell and Frankl admit that "The Jews involved in planned resistance had for a long time been engaged in smuggling arms from the outside world, and combat groups fired on and killed S.S. men and militia in charge of a column of deportees." The terrorists in the Ghetto uprising were also assisted by the Polish Home Army and the PPR -- Polska Partia Robotnicza, the Communist Polish Workers Party. It was under these circumstances of a revolt aided by partisans and communists that the occupying forces, as any army would in a similar situation, moved in to suppress the terrorists, if necessary by destroying the residential area itself. It should be remembered that the whole process of evacuation would have continued peacefully had not extremists among the inhabitants planned an armed rebellion which in the end was bound to fail. When S.S. Lieutenant-General Stroop entered the Ghetto with armoured cars on 19th April, he immediately came under fire and lost twelve men; German and Polish casualties in the battle, which lasted four weeks, totalled 101 men killed and wounded. Stubborn resistance by the Jewish Combat Organisation in the face of impossible odds led to an estimated 12,000 Jewish casualties, the majority by remaining in burning buildings and dug outs. A total, however, of 56,065 inhabitants were captured and peacefully resettled in the area of the Government-General. Many Jews within the Ghetto had resented the terror imposed on them by the Combat Organisation, and had attempted to inform on their headquarters to the German authorities.

this text is from the 'institute for historical review'
www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/09hilberg.html
page 12
different angle/perspective of the warzaw ghetto 'massacre'?

#12 Heartland

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 06:29 AM

On Warsaw, it worth pointing out that things aren't as black and white as many western "sources" like to say. These sources are often very perceptive in pointing out that the Soviets broadcasted a call for an uprising on July 29, and in the early days of August stopped cold. What they often manage to miss however (which is mind-boggling!), is that on August 1 the German 39th Panzer Corps counterattacked the advancing, overstretched and low on supply Soviet forces. Consisting of the Hermann Göring, 4th, 19th and 5th SS Panzer Divisions, the German tanks enveloped the 3rd Tank Corps heading the advance, causing some 3000 casualties and taking 6000 POWs out of an establishment of some 11,000, ie wiped out. The 8th Guards Tank Corps came close to the same fate but managed to escape with serious losses. This broke the Soviet advance on the city.

The Germans continued to station around four Panzer Divisions in the area, from September and on this was the 46th Panzer and 4th SS Panzer Corps, consisting of the 19th, 25th, 3rd SS, and 5th SS Panzer Divisions. During August and September these unit records indicate constant attacks by the Soviet units opposing them. Meanwhile, minor and second-line units were busy wiping out the uprising.

The often quoted fact that the Soviets simply stopped and sat on their asses and did nothing is coming very close to an urban myth in my mind. I have no idea how the fierce German counter-attack and later concentration of powerful armoured formations can be figured out the equation.

Uh, sorry for ranting and it wasn't aimed at you Kai. I just tend to fly off on a couple of subjects, this is one of them....

:mad: redface.gif :D
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Rush of blood and over we go..."
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#13 Kai-Petri

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:09 AM

Patriot,

there were 2 Warsaw uprisings, the ghetto 1943 and the Home Army uprising in aug 1944. That´s why the different stories.

Heartland,

No problem. Indeed the Germans had troops brought into the area and Russians were losing the momentum of their attack. Whether or not the info sent to the Polish Home Army was there or not or deliberate or not probably cannot be figured out, but what about the supply flights by the western powers. I´m still in the middle of research so I don´t go too much into details as I think some flights were made, but why would Stalin refuse the allied planes landing on the Russian airfields because that would be the only way to send supplies to the Polish Home Army? I find this quite troubling because the Allied were doing the job and Stalin would just watch the help go to Warsaw.

But like I said, quite alot to think about still...

:confused:
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#14 redcoat

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:09 AM

Warning!!!
The so-called 'Institute for Historical Review' quoted by Patriot is one of the most infamous Neo-Nazi revisionist sites on the web. :mad:

http://www.adl.org/p...ing_web/ihr.asp

[ 11. April 2003, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: redcoat ]
if in doubt....Panic!!!!

#15 AndyW

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:47 AM

Originally posted by redcoat:
Warning!!!
The so-called 'Institute for Historical Review' quoted by Patriot is one of the most infamous Neo-Nazi revisionist sites on the web. :mad:

"After six months of peaceful evacuation, when only about 60,000 Jews remained in the residential ghetto,..."

"Peaceful evacuation", what a nice term the nazis have nowadays for herding people to the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Majdanek and Treblinka :rolleyes:

Like it as much as "conflict" iso war, "collateral demage" iso killing civilians, "soft targets" iso humans etc.

Cheers,
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#16 urqh

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 11:07 AM

To be honest Ive steered clear of Irvings works, not becuase of his politics and beliefs more so becuase with all the furore surronding things he has been associated with...talking court cases now and such not anything else..That I didnt know if it was worth reading his books as if it was all?? revisionism I wouold be wasting my money..

I saw one of his books yesterday in a second hand book shop..cant remember the title...but was something like the generals a comparasin?? Didnt buy it because Im obviously thinking its tainted..

But a serious question...Any of you guys who have read any of his works...which ones if any are actually worth buying that will not take me off into fantasy island?

Or am I being too harsh as truthfully admit I havent read anything from him.

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#17 AndyW

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 02:17 PM

Originally posted by urqh:

But a serious question...Any of you guys who have read any of his works...which ones if any are actually worth buying that will not take me off into fantasy island?

Let's say it this way: If I spent an EUR and time on a book, I'd rather spend it on a valuable one. Why bothering with Irving's stuff, not knowing exactely if he's got it right, while there are so much more reliable, non-revisionist history books out there?

I have had a look into "Hitler's war". It is said that some of his very early works until he became addicted to Holocaust denying are maybe worth a read.

Cheers,
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#18 urqh

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 02:32 PM

Andy I think your confirming what I already thought myself...Plenty of other writings on my wish list to bother with this stuff I suppose.

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#19 Leo

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 09:08 PM

Originally posted by urqh:

But a serious question...Any of you guys who have read any of his works...which ones if any are actually worth buying that will not take me off into fantasy island?

[/QB]

Several of Irving's books that aren't tainted by his Holocaust-denying are well worth reading. His book on the bombing of Dresden certainly deserved the critical acclaim it earned, and I would also recommend his biographies of Rommel and Goring.
Also worth a look is 'The War Between the Generals'for its candid insights into the behind-the-scenes arguments and jealousies of Allied commanders in WW2.

#20 urqh

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 10:13 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Leo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by urqh:

But a serious question...Any of you guys who have read any of his works...which ones if any are actually worth buying that will not take me off into fantasy island?

[/quote]Several of Irving's books that aren't tainted by his Holocaust-denying are well worth reading. His book on the bombing of Dresden certainly deserved the critical acclaim it earned, and I would also recommend his biographies of Rommel and Goring.
Also worth a look is 'The War Between the Generals'for its candid insights into the behind-the-scenes arguments and jealousies of Allied commanders in WW2. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]The war between the Generals..now thats the one I picked up yesterday...and put back..Ill go have another look. Thanks.

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#21 Greenjacket

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Leo:
Several of Irving's books that aren't tainted by his Holocaust-denying are well worth reading. His book on the bombing of Dresden certainly deserved the critical acclaim it earned, and I would also recommend his biographies of Rommel and Goring.

Irving's work on Dresden is as bad as his work on Hitler. It is innaccurate, based on unsubstantiated estimates and influenced to a large extent by Irving's pro-Nazi and virulently anti-Churchill agenda.

Might I recommend http://www.holocaust...ce/evans005.asp

This evidence was submitted to a British High Court during Irving's libel trial, and shows quite definitively in my view that Irving's stance on Dresden has little merit.

#22 Stevin

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 07:09 AM

[quote]Originally posted by urqh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by urqh:

But a serious question...Any of you guys who have read any of his works...which ones if any are actually worth buying that will not take me off into fantasy island?

[/quote]Several of Irving's books that aren't tainted by his Holocaust-denying are well worth reading. His book on the bombing of Dresden certainly deserved the critical acclaim it earned, and I would also recommend his biographies of Rommel and Goring.
Also worth a look is 'The War Between the Generals'for its candid insights into the behind-the-scenes arguments and jealousies of Allied commanders in WW2.
</font>[/QUOTE]The war between the Generals..now thats the one I picked up yesterday...and put back..Ill go have another look. Thanks. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]If you are interested in this aspect of the conflict, I suggest THE GERMAN GENERALS TALK by B.H. Liddell Hart. An interesting account of the converstaions Liddell Hart had with several German Generals (Thoma, Rundstedt, Manteuffel, etc.) about the German campaigns, after they were taken prisoner. Many agreed to talk to him quite openly about tactics, strategy, Hitler and eachother as they recognised him as 'one of their own'; a warrior. He was known to them because of his (prewar) writings on the concept of armored warfare.

A book that gave me a surprising insight into the German High command...

[ 12. April 2003, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]
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#23 Stevin

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 07:10 AM

bugger, should have hit the EDIT button
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#24 urqh

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 09:30 AM

Thanks for that Stevin...I'll probably add that to the old collection...

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#25 Leo

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Greenjacket:

Irving's work on Dresden is as bad as his work on Hitler. It is innaccurate, based on unsubstantiated estimates and influenced to a large extent by Irving's pro-Nazi and virulently anti-Churchill agenda.

I wouldn't say that Irving's book on Dresden is the definitive one, but it should be remembered that it was published in 1963 and Irving, by his own admission, did not turn to "revisionist" history (i.e. Holocaust denying etc) until the late 1980s.
True, his Dresden book is controversial and some of his arguments deserve to be challenged (and have been). But it remains one of the most significant books published on this subject, and the fact that Irving went beyond the pale in subsequent years doesn't alter that fact.




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