I am in a dispute over ME-262 vs. P-51. The information I have read and seen. I believe that the P-51 Pilots didn't have that much of a time containing the ME-262? After the initial shock of seeing them? I know that the ME 262 overall speed was much faster but less manuvalable*. The persons who I have this disagreement with is informing me that only 4 ME 262 were shot down by P-51's. He is the also the one that pointed me to this forum. Here is the forum our disagreement is taking place http://forums.bfnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=9765
Welcome to the forums Sinster. I don't know much about the technical detail of the ME262 and the P51. But the specialists - Carl, Kai, General, Stefan -will help you with this. I hope you enjoy with all the different kind of topics.
I think Erich will have the last word on this, but between these two planes the P-51´s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262´s could not do, I think. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. I´m sure that more Me 262´s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Me´s in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". Even with the Flak and FW 190 protection. AS well the Germans were not supposed to get in much combat with the allied fighters but concentrate on the bombers, eh, right, Erich?
I'm not an expert in this area, Sinster, but the definitive book ' Me262 Combat Diary ' by Foreman & Harvey contains a list of 262s claimed by US fighter pilots and there sure are more than 4 ! But this does sound like one for Erich Brown to tackle....
Well, Monday, Crazy managed to crawl out from underneath piles of reprinting High School Social Studies Skills Test Prep Books (now THERE'S a fun title to work with ) and finally get some free time... Yeah, Yeah yeah... you guys just thought you got rid of me! And... welcome, Sinster! On the 4 kills number... This one IS kind of tricky- I'll be the first to admit. I am relatively sure that the 8th Veteran (I can get his name... take a day or so) did claim that only 4 had been downed by American FIGHTERS. The main reason I remember this- it was part of his "intro", that he was one of a very few number of pilots who actually downed a 262. Some quick searching... http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html I have it in my mind that the veteran was referring to "dogfight" type of kills. Would this explain discrepancy? Dogfight versus takeoff/landing? And...http://www.mysa.com/mysanantonio/links/yeager.shtml Hmmm.... And... http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51d_mustang.html So... Erich? This makes it sound like the 262s were mostly killed on take-off and landing- not dogfights. This could explain the reference the 8th Veteran was making... [ 07. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]
Greetings gents. My day is getting cut short, it's wild ! Do not want to offend the air force vet in any way or the gents argueing with Mr. sinster, but here are the facts in simple terms. Before I do I have been studying this sleek Schwalbe for over 35 years so I have a bit on info on the day fighter activites of JG 7 especially which took on the US heavies and P-51 escorts and the 9th AF P-47's. so if further questions come up over this I would be more than happy to help along with our eager forum members and those quick links Facts are these : 20-21 jets were shot down by P-47's of the 8th 56thfg and the 9th Air force P-47 groups, especailly the Hellhawks 365th. A big 0 for the P-38 groups. 137 jets plus were shot down by the P-51 groups in the 8th and 15th Air forces. this includes 12 Arado 234's and possibly 5 Me 163 Komets. When I said plus on the end of the 137 this would include missions flown by 78th fg P-51 pilots who scored up to an additional 6 over unknown airfields in April of 45 in Czechslovakia. confirmation has not been given but gun films seem to confirm their downing. P-51 pilot's with 2 jets. Captain D.H. Bochkay 357th fg 2 Me 262's Capt. G.B. Compton of the 357th 2 Me 262's Capt. D.M. Cummings of the 55th 2 Me 262's both on February 25, 1945 Captain R. DeLoach of the 55th 2 Me 262's First Lt. Urban Drew of the 361st 2 Me 262's on October 7, 1944 on a perfect bounce while landing. Capt. R.S. Fifield of the 357th 2 Me 262's Capt. N.C. Greer of the 339th 2 Me 262's First Lt. H.O. Thompson of the 479th 1 Me 262, 1 Ar 234. you guys have read my interview of 352 ace Don Bryan and his 4 run-ins with the Ar 234, 1 damaged and the last destroyed. Now for books there are loads. Martin gave the title of one of the best for a combat record and incidently the RAF was responsible for downings of 262's as well. My choice is the volumes 3 and 4 of the Massive work from Classic Publications.......four volumes dedicated to the Me 262. more to come !! ~E
Well, here is my zwei pfennigs worth. We have to look at what the role of each plane was. We are talking about two very distinctly different aircraft. The Me 262 was way ahead of it's time. The ONLY proven method to successfully bring down an Me 262 was to attack it during take-off/landing. In the air, the Me 262's job was to bring down bombers. This role was one that would be successfull. The P-51 was a superb prop fighter but in a head on fight with the Me 262, it would not win. The P-51 could out turn the Me 262 to get away but to catch up and make a kill....nope. I'm no expert I do know enough that these should not be put in the same catagory and each was successful in the role it was given. Both superb and if one must choose between the two then it would have to be the Me 262. The proof is in the type of planes that came after that. JETS. [ 07. May 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]
Nice... when I pointed Sinster this way, I was hoping Erich would be around... much easier asking Erich about this stuff than doing the research myself! Allright, I found another tidbit... http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html So, in reference to what the 8th Vet said... I do think he was referring to dogfight kills. Erich, any ideas on the numbers of kills, as far as how many came from aerial dogfights versus the type of kills referred to above? Odd... Now I'm really wondering what that Vet was referring to... or if he just had his information messed up. Maybe one pilots from the 8th only scored 3 dogfight kills? However, in reference to the original discussion Sinster was referring to, it certainly does appear that the P-51s had a major advantage as far as evasion/dogfighting goes. Grrrr... what the heck did that Vet say?!?! [later] PzJgr, this was my though as well... the whole ambush strategy. This would explain the veteran reference- he could have been referring to aerial dogfights, not just kills. Well, now I'm really curious. I emailed the person here at Prentice Hall who set up the talk, see if he can give me more info. See if I get anything... And, as far as comparing the two planes goes- this came up originally as a discussion about Battlefield 1942- NOT a realistic game, so the comparison is somewhat artificial to begin with. I referred Sinster here because he sounded interested in some of the real WW2 info on the 262/P-51 (and what better place to get it?!)... And since I know very little on the Air War, now I'm interested as well! [ 07. May 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]
The only ?.......dude your PC short changed you ! I'm running again for 20 minutes and then I will include for everyone but especially for Herr Sinster and his gaming buddies a listing of totals of jets shot down by individual 8th and 15th AF groups. Not by pilot as that would take some research, though very cool could be time consuming. Heck I may do it yet..... in the fall of 1944 Septmeber through November 1944 Kommando Novotny was the only specialized Me 262 jet fighter unit which attacked any Allied a/c at will, P-38, P-51,s P-47's Mosquitos and heavy US bombers. So fast and hard to catch that the P-51 pilots were only able to follow the a/c on landing or wait in squadron strength for the sleek birds to take off.....aka "Rat Catching" ~E
Maybe it's my PC ? hmmmmmmmcould be things are weird here in the abient vortex of southern Oregon. !! when Janaury 45 came around JG 7 was in the air as a unit. Still not totally unified as it did not have it's full complement of jets and skilled pilots. I. grupp and III. gruppe were the only JG 7 units to appear. II gruppe was paper unit and somehow became part of Gallands JV 44 at war's end thus being IV./JG 7. Too confusing.... C: yes please find out who our 8th AF vet friend is please. It may shed some light. The only thing going for the jet in 1945 was the speed. The engines were at fault and cruisng/flying time was not longlived and once the jet was on landing approach it was a sitting duck. The only Platzstaffel for jet protection was JV 44's Fw 190D's and they did basically nothing except for 1 P-47 claim. JG 7 was defended by tons of 2cm flakvierlings only. Kommano Novotny as hard as they tried to be a defnsive force was defended by III./JG 54's Fw 190D-9's which suffered miserably to the attacking P-51's ! I would have to say that 3/4's of the jet kills were to P-51 in aerial combat. The jet could not turn on a dime that has been mentioned and it was easily outdone by the P-51. ~E
got some letters going out to 20th fg and 339th fg associates so maybe I can post some new first hand materials before years end. as promised for 8th and 15th AF. 4th fg 7 Me 262's, 2 Me 163's 1 Ar 234 20th fg 5 1/2 Me 262's 31st fg 7 Me 262's 52nd fg 1 Ar 234 55th fg 14 Me 262's, 1 ? 78th fg 11 Me 262's plus, maybe another 6 ! 2 Ar 234's 325th fg 1 Me 262 332nd fg 3 Me 262's 339th fg 14 Me 262's, 2 Ar 234's 352nd fg 5 1/2 Me 262's, 2 Ar 234's 353rd fg 7 Me 262's 354th fg 4 Me 262's 355th fg 4 Me 262's, 1 Ar 234 356th fg 2 Me 262's, 2 Ar 234's 357th fg 18 Me 262's 359th fg 5 Me 262's, 2 Me 163's 361st fg 6 Me 262's 364th fg 1 1/2 Me 262's, 1 Me 163 479th fg 5 Me 262's, 1 Ar 234 ~EB~
Damn... as usual, Erich, you're info is great sh*t!!! But... I hate to nitpick here... This is partially the editor in me... but those two lines from your posts seem somewhat contradictory? This is somewhat picky, for certain. I'm just trying to figure out what that Vet meant... if his info was wrong, which is certainly possible, where did he get the incorrect info? It seems like his number was WAY off of reality- which makes me think there's some kind of explanation here. But, I also am waiting to see if the person at work can shed any light on it. Unfortunately, I didn't take any notes at the Vet's talk (D'OH!!), so I don't have his name...
correcto C. I was a bit fast with my fingers. During the fall of 44 the Me 262 was such a surprise to the P-51 pilots since nobody in a flat out race could catch one. Several diving tactics were formed to try and get on top or get in right close and behind to blow the jet away but it couldn't be done.....at the time. Since Allied air intellignece was just plain fantastic it was just a matter of time before Novotny's band of jets would be found and the airfield was detected and almost a daily line-up(squadrons) of P-51's were eagerly waiting to snatch one of the birds out of the sky. As you gave us an indication of Urban Drew shooting down two on landing via a perfect set bounce. The first pilot killed and the second one wounded. Ok within a couple of months and around February/March combat tactics were re-vised to cover the US heavies and it meant that the jets attacking from slightly above and behind would have to go through the rear Allied escorts and then banking away would have to deal with additional P-51 squadrons on the flanks waiting for the jets to finish their runs and then presto ! They would assume combat at height with the jets and then even down to almost ground level following the jets back to base. Is this more understandable ? As to the 8th AF vet, I am sure he must have talked about or was thinking the latter and that being that no Allied pilot ever shot down 4 jets at one time or even had a score of that many. If he was an active pilot with a P-51 fighter group in 1945 then surely he would have known the groups score of jet kills. ~E
Very clear! Makes very much sense. I did hear back from the person here at PH who spoke with the Vet the most, and he is going to get me the Vet's email. I'll see if I can get to the bottom of this... I'm beginning to think that I must have misunderstood some part of his talk- or missed some part. Again, tho- great info here. One of the things that again impresses me about ye olde forums here... Not only is information supplied on a topic like this, but the quality? And depth? Wow...
welcome ! hope that Sinster can use the info which is quite a bit to bolster his defence. By the way if you can send the vets addy privately to me once in possession this would be grand. In fact send me a private to make sure this is even possible and that he would be open to correspondance. do not want to step on toes. also as was asked about Me 262 pilots avoiding the escorts. Well at first they felt it didn't matter and that after attacking the bombers the jet pilots felt they could outrun anything and make it safely back to base even though knowing full well they could be shot down on landing. The attacks against the heavies were enough to run the small gauntlet of fighters in the fall winter of 44. By February/march 45 the jets had to fight it out with the P-47's. spitfires and P-51's just to exist, so if the jet squadrons would be deterred by the presence of the fighter escorts, some jets would take on the escorts while the bulk of the jets would take on the rear of the bomber formations.......so they hoped ! ~E
So... I'm getting the idea that the 262 was not really all that superior? From the sounds of it, the 262 was definetely FAR faster than its opponents... but what else? Sounds like the P-51 could easily take on the 262 in a dogfight. And the 262s were very vulnerable on takeoff and landing and they were rather complicated and hard to build/maintain. And weren't the 262s also prone to mechanical failure? So considering all of this... what's the deal? Was the 262 as impressive a weapon as it is often made out to be?
simply put the Allies could not catch it or the Ar 234 in a straight-out run. But if you caught both a/c types in a banked turn then you will narrow the speed margin and close in within "killing" distance. The Me 262 made a terrible wide turn and this is how the P-51 pilots were usually able to make the bounce or get inside for a deflection shot. The Me 262 powerful forward armament was terrible. 4 3cm kanon and equipped mine shells in could bring down a 4 engine bomber with just 4 rounds. Imagine hitting a P-51 with one.....as a couple of jet pilots have told me, they disintigrated in the air ! The jet engines were at fault and had continual breakdowns, fuel mixture was on the low end by March of 45 and existing stocks were always being hunted down by ground crews..... As being superior, personally I would say no. for the Luftwaffe it was a necessary stop gap, which did bring a few victories but did not alter the inevitable. E>
This is very much an IMHO. I've always considered the Me262 to be like an aerial version of the MP44. By that I mean - it was the future . A new concept. Revolutionary. But, in itself, it was not a world-beating wonder-weapon. Many strengths, many weaknesses. As an attack aircraft against bombers - fearsome. Against other fighter aircraft - not unbeatable. But if the Germans had been able to develop the concept further..... But this is my opinion - I stand ready to be shot down in flames by enraged experten !
No I think you have summed it up pretty well. The German pilots loved the a/c because it was just that......fast. Again it was a stop gap since the a/c was to be fitted with swept back wings and a more dependable set of engines in the summer/fall of 45. ~E
