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U-564 tunic and o'seas cap set


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#1 Bill Smith

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 06:28 PM

Greetings -

I have just sent the U-564 tunic and cap set digital pics to Stevin. He should have them posted here under this thread in a short while. Once posted, I will give further information on this grouping. Thank you for your patience.

Bill

#2 C.Evans

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 09:27 PM

And i'll be on the lookout for the pics. Ill be back here on Monday afternoon. Yesterday had to play hookey as I had errands to do that kept me busy all-day. :(
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
:snoopy: :ww1ace:
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#3 Stevin

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Posted 13 July 2003 - 08:17 AM

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson
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#4 Stevin

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Posted 13 July 2003 - 08:19 AM

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#5 Bill Smith

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Posted 13 July 2003 - 02:48 PM

As always, thank you Stevin for posting of the pictures. Yours, and Volkbert's help on this are invaluable. Much appreciated, the both of you.

This grouping was initially purchased by myself at a militaria show about five years ago or so. A man approached me at my display table, and asked me if I was interested in Kreigsmarine items. After mentioning to him that I was always interested in anything German, Imperial or Third Reich, he pulled out this tunic and cap, and in the end I bought it for $400 U.S. or so, which, even then was a great deal!

The tunic is a privately manufactured item from a Paris tailor, and is dated on the inside with the tailoring shop's name, Paris, France, and the year date of 1941. This is stamped on the inside lining in white ink, which doesn't photgraph well, and which is why it has been omitted from being photographed.

It also has an officer grade breast eagle, and officer grade buttons, and lining. This is because this tunic in fact has been down graded at some point from an officer version to an enlisted man's issue reefer jacket. The Iron Cross II Class ribbon is original to the jacket. Also, not being able to be seen, but in the exact placement of the awards, there are the remnants of the thread holes where someone at some time during the war had worn the cloth version of the EK I, or Iron Cross I Class, and the cloth version of the U Boat Badge. Both of these awards in cloth would have been an exception to the rule as cloth badges been worn were a minority. At some point, these were removed, and the standard award loops were added in at the same points of wear, and standard metal awards then placed on the tunic. The buttons are marked for use by the Kreigsmarine, and also dated 1941.

The blue collar tabs are stand enlisted ranks issue for an able bodied seaman, ( one with no specific duties aboard the sub such as torpedo man, engineer, etc. ) which means that this guy was fairly well decorated for being of lower rank.

The cap has an ORIGINAL U Boat cap badge as for being a member of the U-564. The black cat with the three X's under neath its throat was the logo for the U-564's crew. Three X's meaning its crew having 9 lives. Although not visible in the photo very well, there is a specific pattern as to how these logo's were stitched on to indicate authenticity of the logo. Most of these will be very crude in appearance as these were manufactured from just bits and pieces of remnant metal found aboard the sub.

WORD OF CAUTION!!! -

These cap badges are being heavily reproduced and sold as originals on the collecting market today. Be sure of your source when deciding to purchase one of these. They are very easy to do, inexpensive, and sell for high prices. Take the time to do the research on the item. It will save you money in the end.

The cap has also been ink marked on the inside with the place, Paris France, the manufacturer, and the 1941 year date, again in white ink, and because of its difficulty to photograph, it has been omitted as well.

The cap has also been stitched closed down its center crease with dark thread to give its owner a more "confident look" about themselves. Although non-regulation to do so, it was however done.

This grouping was traded off to its current owner ( and only reluctantly ) for another one of my favorite pieces that I still have - that being a Luftwaffe Generalmajor tropical tunic, another very rare and desirable item to have.

I will put up a few close up pics of this tunic in the future, as this too would be one that is most uncommon also.

If there are any questions concerning this set, please post your questions, and I will be most pleased to answer them.

Be good to each other.

Bill

[ 13. July 2003, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Bill Smith ]

#6 C.Evans

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:46 PM

That is one heck of a gorgeous uboat set-up.!!

Agr--I can only wish I owned this set-up. All I have in KM is the U 181 Leutnantengineers schiffchen that Dieter gave to me. I'd like to have pics of it up here sometime.

That is a mother beautiful uboat set. smile.gif

Bill--thank you for the well-written information as well. I have learned much from this today.

I've just realized that you said you got this set even years ago for ONLY $400----All I can say is W :eek: W. I wish I could have been the lucky person to get these from you. smile.gif

[ 14. July 2003, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
:snoopy: :ww1ace:
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#7 Paul Errass

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 10:19 PM

Hi Bill,

Kriegsmarine is not usually my thing but that is a superb uniform set,thanks for showing them to us,

Paul smile.gif
Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto. Let no one forget . Let nothing be forgotten.

Always looking to buy Militaria / documents related to the Battle of Narva 1944 and Infanterie Regt 15 , 29 ( Mot) Infanterie Division.

#8 Phil

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 11:01 PM

Hi Bill,

Nice set up, I have always wanted to go into U-Boat stuff, as they were the elite of Germany 1939-45 (along with para), although my funds at the moment wont alow me too,

There is something about the colour and cut of the Kriegsmarine tunics taht I really like, although I think the KM is quite negleted in the collecting world.

I really like the cap, I would imagine that a U-Boat cap with an original wartime sewn badge are rare to say the least.

Regards
Phil smile.gif

#9 Erich

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 12:49 AM

thumbs up Stevin for posting Bills U-boot goodies..........very nice. Bill, I have a couple of questions concerning these items but need to get back home to access my Kriegsmarine data files...

more to come...

~E

[ 16. July 2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]
:aceofspades: E ~

#10 Herr Kaleun

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 03:23 AM

A fine collection of U 564. No doubt the sailor who owned these awards received them from his patrols with the great U-boat ace, Reinhard Suhren.

As a side note, Suhren carried the emblem, the Black Cat of U 48, to his command, U 564. Suhren had served aboard U 48 as first watch officer. It can be argued that Suhren was responsible for more tonnage sunk than any other u-boat officer in WW2 since the I.WO was the man who conducted all surface torpedo attacks.

Great pieces of history you have there!! I am green with envy! ;)
"Angriff, Ran, Versenken!"-Onkel Karl
"Sink 'Em All"-Uncle Charlie

#11 Bill Smith

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 04:30 AM

First off, before I comment any further on the U-564, and/or Reinhard Suhren, is it just me, or did we lose the link to the photographs?

Bill

#12 Stevin

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 06:06 AM

Hi Bill, Gents,

There seems to be a malfunction of some kind somewhere. I checked and my server works. The pics are still there and the names haven't been changed.

I have my friend working on it right now. Hope to get them back on line ASAP.

Sorry about this guys, :rolleyes:

Stevin
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson
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#13 Kai-Petri

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 12:33 PM

Thanx for the pics Bill and Stevin,

before the picture faded away...
I managed to see the tunic and it looked like having stood against time very well. I guess the price was not unreasonable (?). Very nice, very nice indeed.

In the net:

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The bridge of U-564

http://www.rnsubmus....todp/German.htm

;)
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#14 David Barton (DB) Mathis

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 01:43 PM

I have been out of town over the weekend, so ididn't get to see them. :( I cant' wait to see them when the links are fixed.
;)

#15 Stevin

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 03:55 PM

Fixed...
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson
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#16 Doc Raider

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 04:20 PM

That's really cool, and I've never seen anything like it!!!! The closest I came was seing Hanns Goebbler's (sp?) overseas hat at a convention (along with the man himself). Nothing like that though! Since it's so customized, it seems to be a kind of "rarest of the rare" item, too. How the heck did that other guy get his hands on it?

#17 David Barton (DB) Mathis

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 04:35 PM

Bill, That is really an :eek: AWESOME :eek: set-up! graemlins/rk.gif One question, (remember I"m a beginer redface.gif ) what exactly does the red ribbon indicate?

#18 Bill Smith

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 04:55 AM

Hello all.

Kai -

Thank you for posting the shots of the coning tower, and that of those U boat sailors enjoying a bit of the warming sun on deck. Very nice.

Doc -

As stated, I picked this up at a show in Portland, Oregon a few years back. It was a walk in. The guy wanted at or about $400. I couldn't pass it up. Then, after a few years of ownership, I was able to trade it to a very dear collector friend of mine who I still see. I even babysit it at times for him smile.gif Having my interest in Luftwaffe, and his being in Kreigsmarine/U - boat, we made a trade. It worked out great for us. That's how the other guy ended up with it.

Phil -

Around here, the Kreigsmarine is some what of a "lost puppy", and the prices are still fairly reasonable. If you are even considering getting in to German tunics, consider the Kreigsmarine. You can still get some very good buys. Especially when it comes to the jumpers, either summer whites or winter blues. Usually the knots are sold separately, and this will be the one item that will be the toughest to locate. "Donald Duck" caps can get expensive. Try searching for one that has a generic "Kreigsmarine" talley about it. Don't expect to locate the "Bismarck", "Tirpitz", or some other capital ship on a cap. They might be out there, and most likely are, but, a LOT of fakes too. More so than originals.

DB -

The "red ribbon" is actually the center stripe for the Iron Cross II Class ribbon. It was only worn on the award on the first day of issue. After that, it was sewn through the second buttonhole of the tunic. There were basically three ribbons that were worn in this official capacity, and never more than two at one time, with the Iron Cross taking the precedence of being the top ribbon in the pecking order. The other two were the War Merit Cross II Class ( either With, or Without Swords ), and the Russian Front Medal. As you can see, this guy, for an able bodied seaman, was fairly well decorated.

And DB, that's great admitting you're a beginner. We all are in some capacity. That's how we all learn, by asking questions smile.gif

Be good to each other.

Bill

[ 15. July 2003, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: Bill Smith ]

#19 Bill Smith

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 05:44 AM

One more before calling it good for the night....

I got to thinking, since some of you have asked what it took, or how the current owner got this set up, I have emailed Stevin the digital photo's of what I received in return for the U boat set. He should have them posted here soon.

Be advised however, that the binoculars, and the pith helmet did NOT come with the tunic. This has been added on to enhance the set up, although the pith helmet itself is worthy of note.

I'll see if the pics are posted in the morning, and if so, I'll throw out a few phrases before heading off to work.

Bill

#20 TA152

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 06:53 AM

Thanks for posting the uniform pictures Bill, and thank you KP for posting the sub that goes with the uniform ! It would be nice if research could be done to see who the crewman was and if he is still around today.

I was also wondering where on the sub the crewmen stored such uniforms while at sea ? I can remember how nasty it got on the sub from the movie Das Boot and it seems like the uniforms would be filthly by the time the patrol was over.

Also were they made out of 100% wool or some other materal ?
I need a bailout of only $500,000

#21 TA152

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 07:02 AM

One other question I had after looking at KP's picture of the bridge of U-564. If you look above the crewman in the center there looks like two swords crossed. Are they really swords, and if so what are they for? Pirates ?? :confused:
I need a bailout of only $500,000

#22 Kai-Petri

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 11:58 AM

Ta 152,

I wonder if this is why the swords are there:

Knights Cross with oak leaves and crossed swords

Kptlt. Suhren, Reinhard (26) 35 1 Sep, 1942 U-564

http://uboat.net/men...tter_swords.htm
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#23 Stevin

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 01:18 PM

General's Tunic and helmet

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson
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#24 Bill Smith

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 01:47 PM

Greetings all -

Stevin -

As always, thank you for posting the pic's of the tropical Generalmajor.

TA -

Generally, the reefer jackets of enlisted men were of a blue wool construction. However, in this case, as I believe mentioned above, this particular one was a "down graded" example of officer grade quality. It is constructed of gabardine material.

Kai -

I believe that you are most likely correct, concerning that Suhren was a "Ritterkreuztraeger Mit Eichenlaub u. Schwerten".

Concerning the tunic I received in trade, this is a RARE officer tropical tunic with the rank of Generalmajor. General's material is often tough to locate, and expensive. To have that as well as its being a tropical version tunic is near impossible to locate. You are looking at two VERY rare tunics to find usually.

General's, irregardless of branch, wore white waffenfarben or color piping on their tunics. Therefore, this tunic could have been issued to a general from anything from flak to flight, and all branches in between.

The collar piping, and breast eagle are in gold, not silver as is correct for officer ranks above the rank of Oberst ( Colonel ), and it is ink stamped inside with size markings only. There is no issue depot as this was a private tailor purchase and not issued from general military stores.

The pith helmet at first glance might be thought of as "what's so special?". What is special about it is that the Luftwaffe issued pith helmets to their troops in tropical climates such as southern France, Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, southern Russia, and of course, North Africa, in three colors. Tan, Green, and Blue. The rarity of any of them is much more so than say, the Army versions, but the tan Luftwaffe issue is the one most encountered. Then the green shown here, and finally, the near impossible to locate blue version.

I did well in the trade, and as I said last night, I get to "babysit" the U -564 grouping. Well, the former owner of the general gets to "babysit" him once in awhile too. So you see, sometimes trades will work out to advance ones collections also!

Bill

#25 David Barton (DB) Mathis

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 03:05 PM

Thanks again Bill and Stevin! Very nice! I really enjoy seeing this with my interest in north africa!
graemlins/rk.gif graemlins/rk.gif




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