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Treasure Looted From Germany On Show


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#1 Kai-Petri

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 02:11 PM

Treasure Looted From Germany Goes On Show in Moscow

March 13, 2007

Golden jewellery from Europe's dark age between the 5th and 8th centuries A.D. has gone on show in Moscow for the first time since it was seized by the Red Army from a Berlin museum in 1945.

http://www.spiegel.d...,471449,00.html

The items now on exhibit were among 1,538 artefacts that a Berlin museum had stored in three boxes inside a bunker to protect them from Allied bombing. The treasure was discovered by Soviet troops and flown to Moscow in June 1945.
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#2 Skipper

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 05:48 PM

this is cultural looting and belongs rightfully to Germany according to the 1907 Convention, as it can not be included as war compensations like money, factories or cattle etc... . I understand the Russians do not want to give it back, but if Germany had to give back its stolen goods so should the Russians. The fact that Russia voted a law to make this looting legal should not be taken into account.

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#3 Sloniksp

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 06:41 PM

Do the spoils not go to the victor?
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#4 Skipper

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:07 PM

True Sloniksp, anything but cultural objets. Besides the war is over now and it no longer needed to humiliate Germany by keeping these symbols.

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#5 Sloniksp

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 08:26 PM

Yes, however many countries other then Russia have similar artifacts which dont belong to them.... England for example has many Egyptian artifacts which Egypt wants back.

As this has to apply to all countries not just one, no one country can simply point a figure at another as chances are they too have some artifacts that dont belong to them....

All said and done, something tells me that Germany and Russia will work this out and the artifacts ( at least most of them ) will be returned at the appropriate time.
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#6 Skipper

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 02:07 AM

I admit I was kind of smiling while waiting for your reaction on this post. I also believe things will be settled in time and Egypt claims are just as rightfull as any other country or particulars, including those who got cultural goods stolen by the Nazis. It's all a matter of money.

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#7 Sloniksp

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 03:18 AM

Smiling huh?? Damn it, am I that predictable?? :D
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#8 Za Rodinu

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 10:32 AM

I was expecting this reaction from you, therefore...

:parrot:

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#9 Richard

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 10:12 PM

England for example has many Egyptian artifacts which Egypt wants back.


Well they can go eat :cheese: and :egg: for all I care. :rolleyes:

#10 Za Rodinu

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:32 AM

What a phillistine! You're lucky you have never been invaded in the last 940 years. If Napoleon had got his Channel tunnel working and had successfully invaded, how would you feel if your Regalia, the Magna Carta, etc. were on display at the Louvre?

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#11 Richard

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:32 PM

Well Za we would not have many good museums and Tony Blair would not be able to sign away the Magna Carta to the EU.

And if Napoleon landed here we would have no upper class and wine would be cheap. And no drunken yobs peeing over my wall on Friday Saturday nights.

#12 Za Rodinu

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:55 PM

You're evading the question, you minor league John Bull. And if I knew where your wall is I'd pee over it too. There! :D

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#13 Sloniksp

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:08 PM

:D :D :D
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#14 Von Poop

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:35 PM

I wonder if Germany would also be so keen to get back all the Nazi banners heaped up in the Moscow museum? Maybe Kubinka should give them the Morser Gerat and Sturer Emil? I'm sure Aberdeen Proving ground would find it a pleasure to permanently hand over their Tiger and Hydrostatic drive Pz IV to the Munster Collection...

There is a certain Validity in 'to the victor, the spoils'.
This claiming of artifacts on 'cultural heritage' grounds is too often in reality bound up with other political aims, a dash of nationalism using these items as a handy reference point never did any harm to populist politicians.

Could it not also be said that these treasures are just as much a part of the German culture by the very fact they sit in another states museums. This achieved by virtue of Germanies culture turning down a particularly distasteful route at one point in it's history, and squandering their very safety and security within their homeland?

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#15 Skipper

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:19 PM

Interesting point of view Adam, but should all Germans, including those generations that have nothing to to with the war pay for a decade of madness,whereas these jewels had been in Germany for centuries and are a permannent subject of useless tension between two neigbours who have no more reasons to fight each other?

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#16 Richard

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:32 PM

You're evading the question, you minor league John Bull. And if I knew where your wall is I'd pee over it too. There! :D


What question? :rolleyes:

And the next person takes a whizz on my wall will get there you know what cut off with my hedge trimmers. :P

#17 Von Poop

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:42 PM

Skipper I don't think they're paying much of a price. If they really want to see these items then these days they can travel to inspect them.

If anyone were asking for an apology from modern Germans I do think that's nonsense, but this is rather different, It almost enriches the artifacts story to me that they became booty, as long as they are being preserved correctly as a part of world heritage then that seems fine to me. Different states will always find something to bleat and bicker over, I'm not sure the repatriation of a few baubles would change that.

In the unlikely event that Mr Putin were ever to allow these items to be returned I still think it would be rather funny if the Russians piled a load of Deutschland Erwache banners and the like into the display at the inevitable press conference... :mischief:

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#18 Sloniksp

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 08:01 PM

5th and 8th century artifacts might very well be returned but the Nazi Banners would absolutely not as they are now part of Russian history as much as German.
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#19 Von Poop

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 08:49 PM

As are the ancient artifacts that were lost under those very banners.
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#20 Za Rodinu

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 08:51 PM

Skipper I don't think they're paying much of a price. If they really want to see these items then these days they can travel to inspect them.


Again I find it easy to speak from a British point of view, as I said before the last time Britain was invaded was in 1066 and this was by a guy who intended to stay! It's easy for you to speak, as nobody ever plundered anything from you while Britain's museums and private collections have been enrichened by plunder and private shady acquisitions quite contrary to nowadays law. Therefore it's natural you Brits are not prepared to understand points of view from "the other side".

In my country's case, we still resent the fact that during the Peninsular Wars we were mightily plundered by the French, and in the case of Marshal Junot's 1st invasion the French troops were conveyed home by the Royal Navy - courtesy of Gen. Hew Dalrymple - with their entire loot, a pox on his name!

One thing is capture of military items, the other is plunder of cultural or private property. In the above mentioned case (and in WW2 in general terms) this was robbery plain and simple. Is it not fair to demand return or compensation?

Concerning the aforesaid German standards, including the famous LSSAH banner, these were in my view legitimate spoils of war. The Germans may try and go and recover them by the same means ;)

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http://en.wikipedia....ntion_of_Sintra

The 20,900 French soldiers were evacuated from Portugal with all their equipment and 'personal property' (which was mostly looted Portuguese valuables) by the British Navy. They were transported to Rochefort, Junot arriving there on October 11. Avoiding all Spanish entanglements and getting free transport meant the French travelled loaded, not light like a defeated garrison marching to their own lines.

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#21 Sloniksp

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 09:14 PM

As are the ancient artifacts that were lost under those very banners.


Not so sure about that. As Skipper said why should an entire country's heritage be victim or held hostage due to an abysmal regime? Things to do with that time period is one thing, but going back ceturies is another
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#22 Von Poop

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 09:35 PM

This seems to me like a belief that any part of history can be revisited and altered as the standards of the day change. Countries fought, some stuff changed hands, and that's the way it was.

I don't see it as a nationalistic viewpoint Za, Britain was indeed Lucky and Strong (even dominant) enough to retain most of her treasures and a fair few other places' too, but they were mostly acquired by a trade, usually in cash, often in blood, the former was satisfactory to the country or owner selling at the time, whether directly for the goods or indirectly as useful work and ancillary trade came from these crazy Englishmen who wanted to cart off all that old rubble. The second moves it into the spoils of war.

I went and had a quick look at some Portugese military history, didn't find much on plunder except a few African acquisitions and some naval booty but my god what a fascinating history. I'd never even heard of the 20's dictatorship, any good general books on Portugal in English that you've noticed?

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Adam.
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#23 Skipper

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 10:46 PM

I would like to add another aspect that may have importance here. The treasure was expressily hidden in a bunker to be preserved. It was taken away from anyhting that may connect it to the war. Never would the Germans have sold it to get tanks etc.. Another aspect that has to be taken into account. The treasure was only discovered in June 1945, that means when the war was already over. It was therfore a post war looting.

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#24 chocapic

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 10:59 AM

What a phillistine! You're lucky you have never been invaded in the last 940 years. If Napoleon had got his Channel tunnel working and had successfully invaded, how would you feel if your Regalia, the Magna Carta, etc. were on display at the Louvre?



Well...France did not even managed to keep the 4 horses of the San Marco Basilic that Napoleon stole to Venezia :D

#25 Za Rodinu

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 03:22 PM

I went and had a quick look at some Portugese military history, didn't find much on plunder except a few African acquisitions and some naval booty but my god what a fascinating history. I'd never even heard of the 20's dictatorship, any good general books on Portugal in English that you've noticed?


Yes, quite interesting. Marvellous climb from the 14th century onwards, miserable decline from the mid 16th century, so it was a very brief bright spot. All to the profit of the English and Dutch, mainly, who had a much more intelligent outlook and business approach. That's what you get when you expel the Jewish intelligentsia and bourgeoisie!

I'm not aware of anything of interest in English right now, I'll look up some bibliographies later. A couple of years ago I bought in Amazon "The Command of the Ocean" (Nic Rodger), on the Royal Navy which occasionally contained some surprising glimpses here and there on Portugal. A fascinating book, heartily recommended! Much more to it than Nelson, for whom the author doesn't have much enthusiasm ;)

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