Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Estonia and Soviet WW2 memorial


  • Please log in to reply
53 replies to this topic

#1 Kai-Petri

Kai-Petri

    Kenraali

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 20,289 posts

User's Awards

2   

Posted 26 April 2007 - 09:11 AM

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/6255051.stm

The president of Estonia has signed into law a bill allowing the removal of a controversial Soviet war memorial from the centre of the capital Tallinn.
The bronze statue of a Soviet soldier, erected in 1947, is regarded by many as a symbol of Soviet occupation.

However, the large ethnic-Russian population in Estonia see it as a symbol of liberation from the Nazis.

The decision has angered Russia too. The Russian parliament is expected to adopt a statement denouncing the law.

It is thought that several soldiers are buried underneath the monument, and the government argues that it is impossible for their graves to receive the proper respect, when protesters gather and fight at the site.

The statue and the remains of the buried Red Army soldiers will be moved to a cemetery.

Their plans have not just aroused local passions, however.

Russia, which does not agree that the Soviet Union occupied Estonia, has suggested that it is symptomatic of a rebirth of fascism in Estonia.

Moscow described plans in Estonia to criminalise Soviet symbols like the hammer and sickle - effectively equating them with the Nazi swastika - as "blasphemous".
Posted Image

#2 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 26 April 2007 - 10:51 AM

Interesting issue. The two points of view are worth consideration. What the Russians see as a liberation , Estonia considers as another occupation and apainfull occupation that denied their very independence. However there is a Russian minority in Estonia now and they should be respected too. I think that putting the monument at a different place is a fair compromise. They are not talking about destroying the monument, are they?

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#3 Kai-Petri

Kai-Petri

    Kenraali

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 20,289 posts

User's Awards

2   

Posted 26 April 2007 - 12:03 PM

We´ll see. Remember though that the Soviet minority was brought in by Stalin´s order from all around the USSR and the Estonians instead out of the country. (The idea of destroying national "feelings" and togetherness ). I have been wondering when the Estonians start talking about getting the Russians out as I must say that the Estonians "hate" the Russians even more than us Finns.
Posted Image

#4 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,420 posts

Posted 26 April 2007 - 02:43 PM

Estonia recently had a ceremoney comemorating the fallen SS soldiers which fought to liberate their country from Communism ( at the same time fighting along side the Germans on other parts of the Eastern front ). The president and other officials were present at this ceremony which has been strongly criticized by countries like Russia, Ukraine, Israel and Germany just to name a few.

The other side of the this argument is that while so many died getting rid of fascim from this country, it is once again coming alive and even being honored at the highest levels of the cabinet.

Russia views the relocating of the Bronze Statue and its buried soldiers along with the term occupiers as a insult to those who fell defeating the very same people who it seems are now trying to move them.

Is the hatred of Stalin and Communism a justified cause for turning to Hitler and Fascism?

Israel doesnt think so.
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#5 Kai-Petri

Kai-Petri

    Kenraali

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 20,289 posts

User's Awards

2   

Posted 26 April 2007 - 02:59 PM

Looks like Russia is facing the problem as well...

http://edition.cnn.c...r.ap/index.html

I don´t get it but there seems to be something that SOME people find fascinating ??!!
Posted Image

#6 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 26 April 2007 - 03:08 PM

Aren't we exagerating a bit? From what I read here Estonians are supposed to be fascists... I think Estonians just want ther country to be their own. This monument was imposed by an occupier, the Estonians never asked for it. The fact that they no longer want Soviet symbols doesn't mean they want Swastikas instead. They would have removed it too if the monument was German or any other nationality.

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#7 Kai-Petri

Kai-Petri

    Kenraali

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 20,289 posts

User's Awards

2   

Posted 27 April 2007 - 06:38 AM

The monument has been removed said the morning news.

The interesting thing is that there was a riot all through the night, and according to the news these were 14-18 year old youngsters fighting the police and throwing things and breaking windows and shops....what do 14-18 year old know about these things?? And why all the violence?

http://news.monsters..._over__Roundup_

It seems there are people whose leading politics is violence but the colour of the politics can change....?
Posted Image

#8 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 27 April 2007 - 08:33 AM

Thanks for the update Kai. Now it's removed.Another instance: Originally Napoleon wanted to be buried under the Arc de Triomphe. He got moved to the Invalides instead, so big deal...

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#9 Kai-Petri

Kai-Petri

    Kenraali

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 20,289 posts

User's Awards

2   

Posted 27 April 2007 - 08:40 AM

Estonia removes SS monument

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/2148732.stm

This should be remembered here, I think.
Posted Image

#10 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 27 April 2007 - 03:32 PM

Good point Kai, thanks for recalling this.

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#11 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,420 posts

Posted 27 April 2007 - 07:50 PM

Looks like Russia is facing the problem as well...

http://edition.cnn.c...r.ap/index.html

I don´t get it but there seems to be something that SOME people find fascinating ??!!


Yes very unfortunate and at the same time a dark side of Russia. These stupid youths which simply dont know any better are the very reason why so many African, Asian and Middle Eastern minorities are fearful for their safety. Unfortunately many countries have them and they are all equally as intelligent. This current period in Russia by some is being compared with the Birth of the KKK in the U.S. ( on a smaller scale ). The government is doing all it can to clamp down and the president even mentioned this problem in his State of the Union speech.

From what I read here Estonians are supposed to be fascists...



Not at all but when their own Government pays respect to the Estonian SS what do you think other countries are going to think?

This monument was imposed by an occupier


And the Germans were liberators??

Estonia removes SS monument


yes indeed.... but mostly due to pressure from other countries.


Estonians honor SS veterans
http://litek.ws/k0ns.../honor_ss1.html

"Earlier this year Jewish groups were similarly outraged when a statue to a colonel in the SS alleged to have the blood of thousands of Jews and Russians on his hands was erected in the north of the country. The unveiling of the statue - to Colonel Alfons Rebane - was attended by a member of the Estonian parliament and the government itself refused to condemn it, let alone insist on its destruction."
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#12 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 28 April 2007 - 11:06 PM

I just read the news about the Riots in Estonia today: 150 wounded, 600 arrested.
What however mostly surprised me was to read that 12% of the Russian minority in Estonia had no nationality...

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#13 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,420 posts

Posted 29 April 2007 - 01:30 AM

You know I havent heard anything about this issue here in the U.S. I wonder why?
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#14 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 29 April 2007 - 08:04 AM

Really? There was even a Russian Estonian stabbed to death and a second night of riots. The Estonian Prime Minister has called the Russians youths "drunk looters who did not respect the WWII veterans" and there were even demonstrations at the Estonian Embassy at Moscow. Putin has expressed his concern to Angela Merkel, who has the presidency of Europe these months.

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#15 Za Rodinu

Za Rodinu

    Aquila non capit muscas

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,809 posts
  • LocationPortugal

Posted 29 April 2007 - 11:15 AM

I saw the disturbances on TV, smashed shopwindows, cars overturned and set afire. Yes, a pretty sight. Certainly not warranted by an old statue or two, rather a disgruntled sector of the society like the French 3rd generation muslim immigrants recent riots.

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#16 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,420 posts

Posted 29 April 2007 - 04:09 PM

Really? There was even a Russian Estonian stabbed to death and a second night of riots.


I myself am quite familiar with the current events in Estonia... However what I meant was that this current situation is getting absolutely no media attention here in the U.S. not a single channel has reported it. I myself find this a little bizarre, afterall when the protesters in Russia were broken up by the riot police ( in a way which I disagreed with ) this was all over the news and Russia was strongly criticized.... However when riots occur for 2 days in a NATO country like Estonia, a person dies and more 750 are arrested all due to a Russian WW2 Monument being moved along with some soldiers that are burried there I hear nothing.... hmmmm
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#17 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 29 April 2007 - 07:22 PM

wow this is amazing : we have it on the head lines . Putin and Merkel are higlhy involved and the European Union is worried. Russia has even stated that it would change its diplomatical attitude towards Estonia.
I can give you a media link but it's in French.

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#18 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,420 posts

Posted 29 April 2007 - 08:02 PM

Thanks Skipper.. I myself benefit from being bilingual so I have the privilege of reading BBC news along with newsru. Foxnews and CNN have recently started to mentionthe tension in eastern europe, but this is only on the internet. On the television one would hear absolutely nothing!!

So much for fair and balanced on the so called free speech.
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#19 Von Poop

Von Poop

    Waspish

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,072 posts
  • LocationPerfidious Albion

Posted 29 April 2007 - 08:28 PM

All sounds a bit loopy, one side getting annoyed about the removal of the SS memorial countered by those on the other protesting the removal of 'their' memorial.
The statues removal seems to have acted like a trigger rather than any kind of genuine cause. Reading into it I get the feeling that a Russian minority that feels severely restricted within the relatively 'new' Estonia would be looking for any old excuse for a riot/protest around about now.
I know in many of the former USSR's states it is becoming impossible for ethnic Russians to obtain passports because of the nationality issue referenced by Skipper, a quick web-search didn't confirm whether this is the case in Estonia, anyone know?

Cheers,
Adam.
It's only the Internet...

#20 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,420 posts

Posted 29 April 2007 - 11:46 PM

It is not removal of the Statue itself but more on the soviet dead beneath it.
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#21 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 30 April 2007 - 09:34 AM

I saw images on the news of the place where the statue used to be. The authorities have put a tent above it and are digging with archeologists to check if there are bodies underneath. It's possible, but the Estonians do not believe it. by looking for these it will at least solve one mystery.

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#22 Kai-Petri

Kai-Petri

    Kenraali

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 20,289 posts

User's Awards

2   

Posted 30 April 2007 - 06:33 PM

1. Why is Putin(?) so involved with the dead soldiers here. According to
" Ivan´s war " only the members of the communist party were informed of their son´s/daughter´s death in WW2 to begin with the Red Army. What happened to the ones who were not party members? Not interested in those back then?

2. Even if there are corpses how can they be recognized and anyone informed? The Red Army did not have dog tags or did they?

3. How can Duma claim the resignation of an independent government? Or are were going back to Stalin times?

4. Should we discuss the Ribbentrop Molotov deal first or am I correct that neither the USSR or Russia had admitted this one?? Or the deportations in Estonia/ Baltic countries in 1940-1941?

5. Why is it not possible to put the memorial to another place? It is not like detroying it? I don´t recall anyone saying a thing when all those Lenin statues were wrecked and brought down.

------------

Like all political questions I´m asking a lot so don´t get mad or you already lost it....

;)
Posted Image

#23 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 01 May 2007 - 11:35 AM

Agreed Kai. Russia should stop treating Estonia like it's a private garden. They can no longer pee in it, neither can Germany or anybody else.
I understand Russia's attitude though. Other countries had to digest the loss of an Empire and had the hardest time not intefering in internal affairs of former colonies. But just like those other countries, Russia will have to accept its neighbours and stop giving democracy lessons.

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#24 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,420 posts

Posted 01 May 2007 - 06:12 PM

No matter who is right or wrong or what the world may think, one thing is for sure..... the relationship between these two countries will not be the same as Russia will not forget nor forgive the decision which Estonia has made for a very long time.

I am afraid that when all is said and done, it will be Estonia not Russia who will feel the full weight of this decision.
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#25 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 21,599 posts

Posted 01 May 2007 - 07:17 PM

I'd rather think that history will forget these difficult times after a generation and that Estonia will intregate the Russian minority peacefully. At least I hope so. The Baltics are not the Balkans after all.

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users