Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

American Invasion

invasion of north america

  • Please log in to reply
251 replies to this topic

#1 Hawkerace

Hawkerace

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 844 posts

User's Awards

2   

Posted 31 May 2007 - 03:03 AM

Okay, this is very impossible during the course of the real war. But bare with me,

the war has changed in favor for the Germans incredibly Britain is isolated on the Island, Germany has pushed Russia into chaos and to the objective to what Hitler desired..

Now, Germany has decided to invade USA, how would this go... or would it start?

Anything is allowed, or you can make your on scenario based on the Invasion of America... example: What if Japan invaded USA??

Use your knowledge, and put a little imagination and spice into the mix :D
[sigpic][/sigpic]

#2 Seadog

Seadog

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 355 posts

Posted 31 May 2007 - 03:34 AM

The only real way to attack the US would be to secure footings elsewhere. A Japanese takeover of Hawaii and/or the aluetians would allow attacks from that quarter. Possible German points of attacks would be South American nations like Argentina, or Mexico. We would be talking decades, but that would be the most likely choices.
Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

#3 PzJgr

PzJgr

    Drill Instructor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,079 posts
  • LocationJefferson, OH

User's Awards

2   

Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:03 PM

Agreed. I would say that Germany would entice Mexico to join them much in the same way it tried during the first world war by promising them the former Mexican territories in Texas, New Mexico and Colorado. The Germans would then use Mexico as a jumping board to attack northwards taking the western half of the US taking Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and everthing North of there.

How's that for a plan?
Stug2.jpg

 


#4 FramerT

FramerT

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,570 posts

Posted 31 May 2007 - 02:08 PM

Agreed. I would say that Germany would entice Mexico to join them much in the same way it tried during the first world war by promising them the former Mexican territories in Texas, New Mexico and Colorado. The Germans would then use Mexico as a jumping board to attack northwards taking the western half of the US taking Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and everthing North of there.

How's that for a plan?


That would've made you a POW, PzJgr. lol How exactly is Germany to get her planes over to here? Or ships. The U.S. still has 4 carriers. The Panamal Canal would be hotly contested,also. Maybe using under-water capable Maus tanks could help?

#5 Za Rodinu

Za Rodinu

    Aquila non capit muscas

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,809 posts
  • LocationPortugal

Posted 31 May 2007 - 02:17 PM

FramerT, and still you're overlooking Godzilla, I'm sure it would give hell to any nazi invasion force :D

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#6 PzJgr

PzJgr

    Drill Instructor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,079 posts
  • LocationJefferson, OH

User's Awards

2   

Posted 31 May 2007 - 02:19 PM

That would've made you a POW, PzJgr. lol How exactly is Germany to get her planes over to here? Or ships. The U.S. still has 4 carriers. The Panamal Canal would be hotly contested,also. Maybe using under-water capable Maus tanks could help?



And while Me, Carl Evans and TA152 are digging our own great escape, I would be thinking "FramerT better hurry up and sink those Nazi ships in the Gulf and get this war over with" :)
Stug2.jpg

 


#7 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,497 posts

Posted 31 May 2007 - 03:00 PM

As this definately falls into one of the most farfetched " what if's ", im going to guess that Hawaii would be the best place for Japan to get its foot in. Then concentrate on eliminating the navy while at the same time, splitting it in half by destroying the Panama canal.

Germany would work on Latin America ( not really sure how ) but im sure the all mighty superior Aryan race could figure this out. :D

Then Japan might invade California and hang its flag over the Hollywood sign and makes its own WW2 movies!!! :D
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#8 T. A. Gardner

T. A. Gardner

    Genuine Chief

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,855 posts

Posted 31 May 2007 - 09:19 PM

Impossible?! It is literally beyond that as a "what-if"

Some of the problems:

Germany lacks a navy. It will take them at least a decade of concentrated effort to produce a viable one and then, largely at the expense of their army (ie big navy smaller army). Even after producing a navy capable of engaging the US at sea (to ensure their forces make it across the Atlantic) they are then faced with the very real (and certain) threat of a "reverse" U-boat campaign by the US on their shipping. This will require further heavy investment in naval forces and aircraft to counter. The US, alone, spent about $11 billion on stopping German U-boats. The German economy could never, even with the infusion of captured area economic input, take a hit that big.

Next, the Germans are faced with a nation that has roughly the same population as the Soviet Union. As a land power on the North American continent the US Army could have easily reached 200 to 300 divisions if necessary. The US has internally the resources to make this happen. On the flip side, the Germans are now faced with having to ship their forces and supplies over thousands of miles of ocean to fight. It is doubtful they could put anything close to enough troops ashore to successfully fight the US.

Then there is simply the size of the US. Again, the Germans are facing a huge problem just in trying to take and secure such a large land mass. Some areas would be exceedingly difficult for the Germans to operate in too. Invading from Mexico for example means primarily trying to cross what is mostly low desert with very few roads and even fewer north - south oriented ones. They would also be faced in Arizona with range and basin terrain, a huge defense advantage. In New Mexico it is Rocky Mountian terrain. West Texas is just as bad. Scrub desert, no roads, no towns to speak of, etc.
Southern California is a major bastion of the US military, even at the time. It would be resolutely defended no doubt.
Of course, the US would not have set idly by while the Germans built up an army in Mexico either.

Major ports? Virtually all are fairly well defended by coastal defenses. The Germans would have virtually no information on beach conditions for amphibious assaults, and very little experiance in performing them.

Air power would be another problem. The Luftwaffe designed aircraft with ranges suitable for combat in Europe. In the US, as in the Soviet Union, these aircraft are going to be of limited use due to their short ranges.

Basically, the Germans lack the economy and military competence necessary to wage a truly global war. I doubt they could have managed to do anything against the US of truly worthwhile result to them.

As for Japan, this is just ridiculious. The Japanese are hopeless in this example.

#9 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 22,309 posts

Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:18 PM

We could consider an uprisal of the German Bund members in the U.S, Those guys might have entered the scene if Germany was near the U.S. borders. This would have disorgnanised the U.S. and created a "home front".of suspicion, sabotage etc..

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#10 FramerT

FramerT

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,570 posts

Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:02 AM

http://www.imdb.com/...985/plotsummary

It "could" happen.

#11 Seadog

Seadog

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 355 posts

Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:04 AM

I can see no scenario that could make this feasible. However, if the US was attacked by an outside force today, Mexico is the only real route. An enemy that was able to get the Mexicans involved on their side would be formidible, especially if the cartels were involved. Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisianna, Oklahoma, Kansas and Arkansas are vulnerable. An enemy that could push us back would have an advantage of cutting us off from a large portion of our oil supplies.

That would be the key. Isolating the gulf states and California early would take out a lot of our key industries. Success would require a massive buildup in Mexico that was ignored by our leadership. An advantage is that they would have avenues to infiltrate many key locations and sabotage our ability to act. Our highway system could be turned against us and the military would get bogged down with dealing with evacuees and sabotage. Being able to conguer everything below the Mason Dixon line and sustain the effort would be a probable defeat for our nation. It would put us with the difficult decisions that would create impossible choices.
Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

#12 Za Rodinu

Za Rodinu

    Aquila non capit muscas

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,809 posts
  • LocationPortugal

Posted 01 June 2007 - 08:33 AM

Impossible?! It is literally beyond that as a "what-if"

...

Major ports? Virtually all are fairly well defended by coastal defenses. The Germans would have virtually no information on beach conditions for amphibious assaults, and very little experiance in performing them.

...


Terry, you're too severe! Of course the Germans could invade the US, they just have to use the same Rhine river barges they "had used" to invade Britain as advocated elsewhere. Well, of course the Atlantic is a bit wider than the English Channel, but only by a bit :rolleyes:

Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra...


#13 Skipper

Skipper

    Kommodore

  • ModeratorsOKF Moderator
  • 22,309 posts

Posted 01 June 2007 - 09:36 AM

What if they came through Alaska after having occupied Russia with "friendly" troops (Ukrainian Vlassov troops, Siberian, minorities etc..)?

Vorsicht+Feind.JPG


#14 FramerT

FramerT

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,570 posts

Posted 01 June 2007 - 01:58 PM

Still a loooong supply route. Canada is'nt a walk-over, either. U.S. still has all her land based bombers/fighters and airfields.

#15 PzJgr

PzJgr

    Drill Instructor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,079 posts
  • LocationJefferson, OH

User's Awards

2   

Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:14 PM

Still a loooong supply route. Canada is'nt a walk-over, either. U.S. still has all her land based bombers/fighters and airfields.


Now that is a good question. What size of forces did the US have at home?
Stug2.jpg

 


#16 Seadog

Seadog

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 355 posts

Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:29 PM

The shear vastness and the difficult terrain of the NW would slow any assaults without much need for allied troops. By the time they worked their way to the United States, a well equiped force would be waiting for them with strong defences.
Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

#17 Sloniksp

Sloniksp

    Ставка

  • TrusteeOKF Trustee
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,497 posts

Posted 01 June 2007 - 03:22 PM

http://www.imdb.com/...985/plotsummary

It "could" happen.


haha good point!!!

Always wondered what happend to the U.S. military when Russia decided to invade Kansas......:D
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler


#18 T. A. Gardner

T. A. Gardner

    Genuine Chief

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,855 posts

Posted 01 June 2007 - 05:44 PM

Now that is a good question. What size of forces did the US have at home?



Depending on when you are looking at it, generally there were two armies (6th in the West and another in the East divided at the Mississippi) and two USAAF air forces in the continential US. These were primarily engaged in line-of-communication, logistic, and training activities rather than active commands.
Of course, for this what-if one would expect the US to have considerably more in the way of forces on the continent if they were expecting the Germans to attempt an invasion or if they were building up forces in Mexico etc.

#19 von_noobie

von_noobie

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 824 posts

Posted 03 June 2007 - 10:11 AM

Ok, for germany to invade America they would have to work VERY VERY VERY closely with Japan.

A joint operation would have to be launched to take the Panama Cannal, The U.S may be able to defend it from Japan or German but not both in a simultaneous attack.

Japan would have to take and secure the Hawaiin and Aleution Islands and build up a STRONG naval presence at both locations. Even better for Japan would be to go across to Alaska and secure the area from Skagway down to Ketchikan, this would give lots of room for a build up of troops and the shortest fly time for Japanese planes to the American mainland.

Also there are some ports in the area that could allow for continues submarine activity.

As for Germany well they would have to secure Iceland and Greenland, Bermuda and all of the American and British Islands in the Caribbian and St. Pierre and Miquelon. Germany would have to spend several years building up her forces on these locations as would Japan.

The only real way this could succeed is with Mexico which could get Materials from Germany and Japan, Japan and Germany could supply Mexico with Tanks, Planes, Ships, Trucks, Artillary, Fuel etc......the list goes on.

Mexico could probally amass an army of about 450-500,000 men.

Japan and Germany would have to start launching air raids as early as possible. Japan's invasion targets would have to be Seattle and Portland. Germany's invasion targets would have to be Boston (via St. Pierre, Miquelon and Bermuda), and Ne Orleans (via the Caribbian Islands). Yes alot of targets but with careful planning, it just may work.

Know for Mexico's targets, There armed forces would not have the men or resources for a two way attack, they would have to choose between either German in New Orleans or Japan in Portland/Seattle. Since New Orrleans is closer i would choose Germany, They would have to secure several areas on the way thoe, Including San Antonio, and Houston along with several other key area's. But just couse they cant reach Japan yet dosn't mean they cant launch a small attack in that direction with the aim of taking a city by the name of San Diego. Would open up a good port of supply for Mexico.

Even once the bridge heads are made and secured it would still mean several months of supply build ups. Mexico could probaly launch small offensives with Japanese/German help to capture area's like Los Angeles and Phoenix etc but thats about it.

Mexico/Japan/Germany could probaly launch a large offesive 6 months after the attack with the aim of capturing all the area from the Mississippi river upto the Arkansas river across to Lake Powell and across to San Francisco. From there they could launch another offensive to link up with the Japanese forces at Portland/Seattle.

By this time the forces in Boston would be ready to launch an offensive to secure Maine, New Hampshire Rhode Island and either all or areas of Vermont Massachusetts and Connecticut.

Becouse of the size of America the only real way to advance across it safely would be to take out one state ata a time with Japan going across the North and Germany going across the South while Mexico could be used as a security force for the captured areas.

From start to finish it would take about 2-2 1/2 years to defeat the U.S government and several more years of fighting armed civilians.

In my view they could defeat the government and its army's etc but would never be able to defeat the peaple.

#20 Von Poop

Von Poop

    Waspish

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,310 posts
  • LocationPerfidious Albion

User's Awards

2   

Posted 03 June 2007 - 10:36 AM

Terry, you're too severe! Of course the Germans could invade the US, they just have to use the same Rhine river barges they "had used" to invade Britain as advocated elsewhere. Well, of course the Atlantic is a bit wider than the English Channel, but only by a bit :rolleyes:


River barges?
Pah!
Far more likely they'd use Iceland after it's conversion to 'rocket powered aircraft carrier that will last for a thousand years. (Mk.1)' :D

I am however interested in PzJgr's home forces question, T.A. gives the answer for regular military and I assume the National guard units were absorbed into the army fairly rapidly as they seem to most closely mirror our 'Territorial Army', but did the US ever have any sort of 'home guard' organisation? I've seen reference to a fair few 'dig for victory' type groups like the 'citizens service corps' but presumably the need for an HG in an already widely armed and generally difficult to invade country wasn't really there?

Cheers,
Adam.
It's only the Internet...

#21 FramerT

FramerT

    Ace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,570 posts

Posted 03 June 2007 - 08:27 PM

<As for Germany well they would have to secure Iceland and Greenland, Bermuda and all of the American and British Islands in the Caribbian and St. Pierre and Miquelon. Germany would have to spend several years building up her forces on these locations as would Japan.>

For every year Germany spent, the US could spend arming herself,too.

<Japan and Germany would have to start launching air raids as early as possible> IMO. This would be another BOB. Axis powers with limited air time over the continent, while US fighters not.

#22 von_noobie

von_noobie

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 824 posts

Posted 03 June 2007 - 09:58 PM

FramerT, If Japan or Germany were to attempt an invasion with outh build up of forces on a fairly close location they would fail, To build the necessary ships to do such an operation would take a good 10 years for Germany.

Yes the axis airtime over the U.S would be a big problem but would you really go and invade a country with out doing some sort of damage to the invasion area wether it be destroying bunkers, naval facilities, or air fields etc.

#23 Slipdigit

Slipdigit

    Good Ol' Boy

  • Administrators
  • 14,911 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 03 June 2007 - 10:18 PM

but did the US ever have any sort of 'home guard' organisation?


The US did not have anything analogous to the Home Guard. I guess the closest we would come to having an organization like that would be the air raid wardens, Civil Air Patrol and the other volunteer observation groups.

I guess our remoteness from any significant fighting precluded the need to organize a 'home guard'. Most of the US National Guard were in the United States from mobilization in 1940 until they embarked for forward areas, mostly in 1943. I don't know how effective their fighting strength would have been as they were poorly armed and were undgoing 'triangulaization', producing large number of orphaned regiments. (The Americal Division was formed from such regiments). During this time, there was very little risk of direct invasion and the presence of large numbers of in-country armed forces did not demonstrate the need to form units out of old and infirmed men.

I do not doubt that if a 'home guard' were to be formed now, the opposition would find itself facing a well armed group of fighters. Supplying the varying weapons would be problematic, but there would be a lot of small arms firepower. I suspect it would have been the same in the 1940s.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

SlidigitAxe.png


#24 Von Poop

Von Poop

    Waspish

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,310 posts
  • LocationPerfidious Albion

User's Awards

2   

Posted 03 June 2007 - 10:46 PM

Thanks SD, that's pretty much what I'd imagined.
It's an intriguing thought, the sheer amount of civilian firepower the US could potentially generate if the need had arisen. Probably the best armed partisans the world had ever seen...

Cheers,
Adam.
It's only the Internet...

#25 Slipdigit

Slipdigit

    Good Ol' Boy

  • Administrators
  • 14,911 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 03 June 2007 - 11:27 PM

I see no way the Axis Powers could have EVER landed troops on the North American continent, much less conquer the US and Canada. They simply did not have the naval power and, more importantly, shipping to accomplish it.

The Japanese were heavily occupied in China and it was presenting a drain on their manpower. They were fighting a large backward enemy right next door on a large land mass and after nearly 10 years of fighting they could not deliver the knockout punch. I see no way that they could have dug up the necessary men to conduct even a limited North American campaign. They had problems providing men for the Solomons campaign in late 1942, and it was relatively close to established bases, when compared to how far the US and Canada are from useful bases.

The only successful anti-shipping campaign was conducted by the US Navy against the Japanese. Greater than 70% of Japanese ships sunk during the war, fighting ships included, were sunk by subs. What a field day the sub captains would have had against the Japanese. To transport one US Marine division in 1944 required around 20 transports. I doubt the Japanese would have needed very many fewer, given the smaller size of the average Japanese maru. With the reduced submarine turnaround time presented by an attacking enemy, it would have been a blood bath on the Japanese transports, if not during the assaults, then during the support phases of the operation. Add to this the Japanese’s atrocious ASW tactics and equipment, plus they were in worse shape for ASW ships than the US was in 1942.

The IJN also had to supply all the far flung island garrisons and they started the war with insufficient transport to do this and conduct island offensive operations adequately. These island operations usually only meant the transport of a division or two at most. I don’t think a two or three divisions would have been adequate to invest North America. At some point, they would have had to move some of their under-strength armor across, eating up even more shipping, only to see it taken out larger gunned and heavily armored US tanks and anti-tank guns. This dilema figured in their decision not land on Australia.

As for Germany, they essentially had no Navy, other than commerce raiders. The Bismarck and Tirpitz were a bust because they did not have adequate escorts and support ships. Plus, the presence of the British Navy would (and did) present major, major deterrents to blue water activities of the DKM. The Italian Navy was an insular navy that could really play no real part outside of the Med Sea. Their range was simply too short. And imagining a loss of the British Isle, I doubt the Bulldog would have allowed the British fleet to fall into German hands. The Germans also had *NO* naval air arm.

But wait, but wait, what about the U-boats? While the U-boats were successful in US waters in early 1942, their “Happy Time” was essentially over by late 1942 and by mid 1943, they were losing subs faster than they could build them (Brute Force, Ellis, Table 37). They had major difficulties supplying forces in North Africa and it was practically on their doorstep. I see no way that the Germans could be anything other than a continental force, unable to exert any meaningful power beyond Europe. Which brings us to European Powers. Even without picking a fight with Joe Stalin, Germany would have to maintain large numbers of troops on the border with the Soviet Union. This and inadequate sea transport would have made it difficult to conduct even minor armor operations on the North American continent. You gotta get them first and I see no reason that the US naval forces, not to mention the Air Forces, would not have had as good of a time against the Germans as they did against the Japanese from 1942 on. The German Navy, other than the sub force, was a non-issue by 1941 and the sub force was mostly irrelevant by 1944. Although they did have a few success after 1943, the German sub force did not influence the war in any meaninful way later in the war.

I could go on and on.

Best Regards,  
JW :slipdigit:

SlidigitAxe.png





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users