Back in 1945, computers and communications were not what they are now. That means once a bombing was planned, it has to be carried out. Remember even after the second A bombing, the war was not over! Until the very last day before the cease fire was in place, Japanese cities were methodically destroyed by B29.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jackson:
I believe he is talking about the fact that the bombs were dropped on Japanese Civilians, and not military targets.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Why didn't they drop those criminal bombs over military targets? Or in the open sea, with a previous warning to Japanese leaders: HIROHITO, WATCH THIS! That certainly would have scared the crap out of the Japs. There was no need, I repeat, no need to kill civilians the way they did. Nothing can justify that. There were alternatives.

Why over innocent civilians?
Did they want to test radioactivity?
To scare the Russians?

We have to admit this: The US has committed a crime. Period.

Would Japan have resisted an invasion?

Japs are wild crazy and have this kamizake tendency, but without ammunition, weapons, fuel and food I strongly doubt they could have resisted another few months.

Would they have defeneded the island with samurai swords and bamboos?

Another question:

Japan surrendered with its main army virtually intact, right?

How did the first US soldier set his foot over the Japanese island after the surrender? Peacefully? Or did the US army have to combat renegade Japanese soldiers?

I have to ask this question, Would England (chruchill) have accepted anything less then unconditional surrender from the Germans?

So in exchange for that FDR agreed and tossed in Japan too. And what should have anything less then unconditional surrender been accepted the Axis nations had to be destroyed to avoid a later rebuilding of alliances or Japan constructing some sort of an Asian allaince.

The US was standing true to its treaties and commitments to its allies.

And you know the only other alternate to a Nuclear device was Gas or Biological weapons, and the effects of those weapons are just as lasting as a nuclear one and probably even more deadly because the weapons would have been used on such a large scale.

Evil begets evil.

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Out side is America!

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Yankee on 17 October 2000 at 04:10 PM</font>

Mito the bombs were dropped on military targets. The city's were industrial cities producing war materials and food materials for Japans war effort.
The cities used were generally of a lower population. Why didn't the US just pick Tokyo?!
The Japanese respect their emporer. When the emporer told them to lay down their arms they respected his word. For to them he was like a god.
the Japanese would have resisted any way possible until the emporer told them to surrender.
The Japanese military was not that weak. They managed to wage a war on Iwo Jima for more than a month TOTALLY cut off from everything. Why, because they had EVERYTHING horded underground to last them months. If they were able to hold on to a piece of ground the size of a large park then they could hold on to the Island of Japan just as long if not longer.
The US develped a weapon that could end the war. They used it...and ended the war. The losses suffered by those cities were actually less then alot of german and other Japnanese cities.
The 2 A bombs actually saved many more japanese cities from being destroyed by an invasion and saved many more japanese too.
It was war. When you have a weapon that can end the war you don't just show them the weapon you use it.
The Japanese did much worse things to other countries and lands. Dropping plague agents on China, death marches in the Phillipeans, executing prisoners. 30 something percent of all prisoners captured by the japanese died while 1 percent died in germany...and in allied camps....1 tenth of a percent died in captivity.
The Japanese still don't acknowledge the use of plague agents...experiments on POW's, or even make appologies for there behavior in WW2.
the Japanese had it coming to them and if it wasn't for those bombs many more thousands of people would have perished in a war that should have ended a year at least earlier.
the Japanese should have ended the war when their cities started getting bombed and there navy was destroyed. It was obvious the US wasn't going to stop until the Japanese surrendered. They should have had the common sense to see that.
The biggest criminals are the Japanese who started this war themselves. And forced this destruction upon themselves.

I couldn't agree more with you, Ron. Especially your last sentence. Apparently, Mito cannot see the logic behind dropping the bomb. No Mito, it was NOT a criminal act. What you need to look at is the facts. And do you honestly think that by dropping the A-bomb in the ocean and telling Hirohito to "watch this!" would work????? We're talking about a people that were dug in for MONTHS in some islands during the Pacific war. You mentioned that the Japanese army surrendered intact? An invasion of Japan would have been one of the most bloodiest campaigns in American AND Japanese history.
Mito, are you saying that lives (especially civilians) would have been saved by not dropping the bomb? Would Operation Olympic be a more "humane" alternative with Japanese civilain lives spared from the destruction? I highly doubt it.
Also, I remember seeing the rising sun emblem on those planes that broke the silence in the early hours of Sunday, December 7th, 1941. To this day, Japan does not even aknowledge or teach its children in school about the Pearl Harbor attack. Key Generals in the Japanese high command have even gone on record to say that they knew all would eventually be lost upon learning that carriers were not present at Pearl on the 7th. It came to a question of "how much longer can the Japanese take this" upon arrival of the B-29 raids.
I cannot believe what I am hearing here.

OK, now I have this question:

Did Hirohito give any signs whatsoever of negotiating a conditional surrender before those criminal bombs?

And a question that wasn't answered: Wasn't Japan bankrupt? (no food, ammunition, etc...)

Statistics would help here.

Take it easy Erich, it's just and opinion, and everyone has got a right to theirs.

HiroHito was the Emperor, but he had nothing to say about the politic of his governement. the military was deciding everything, and they decided each and every Japanese will fight to the last man.
That's a fact.
HiroHito deciding to end the war was not imaginable for the military, and that's why they were surprised by the move. The only thing that could cause the surprise and HiroHito action was the shock of the A bombing of Hiroshima, unfortunately the target was so destroyed it took three days for the Japanese to aknowledge the unbelievable. That cost them Nagasaki.
Remember even after the recording of HiroHito's speech, extremists tried to destroy the tapes. They even killed for that, inside the Palace.

Yes Japan was bankrupt, city destroyed, civilians dying. But the army was ready, they had kamikaze weapons, enough fuel for a one way trip, and bamboo spears for those who had no rifles. And the will to die rather than surrender.

A full scale invasion of Japan mainland would have been a bloodbath.


My opinion about the A Bomb:

Maybe a warning test would have stopped the war. I don't think so, but maybe. Trueman HAD to save as many american soldiers as possible, and launch the bomb. He couldn't take the risk of a lost opportunity. Imagine if after the test the Japanese army just say "fine, do your worst" and dig itself in the ground with screaming civilians outside the trench? What can he do, with his second and last bomb?

But i think the Fat Man bomb was launched too early, i know about the psychological impact they were searching, it certainely was a success. But the Japs didn't even had a chance to surrender after Little Boy. IMHO Nagasaki was a mistake...
"War Crime"? No a mistake isn't a war crime. Nanjing was a war crime.


Remember august 9th 1945, is the day of nagasaki, but also the day of the USSR declaration of war. We all know how the russians were fighting in Eastern Europe, do you think a soviet invasion would have been a good news for Japanese civilians and military?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mito:
OK, now I have this question:

Did Hirohito give any signs whatsoever of negotiating a conditional surrender before those criminal bombs?

And a question that wasn't answered: Wasn't Japan bankrupt? (no food, ammunition, etc...)

Statistics would help here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Answer to question #1: Yes. But this is being overly simplistic; there is more to the equasion.

Answer to question #2: Bankrupt? I still don't understand what you mean. In terms of massive food, ammunition shortages, etc., yes. But I see where we are going here - This was not heading anywhere fast as Japan showed almost no sign of official surrender before the bomb. When given the alternatives (i.e. Operation Olympic, a continuation of coventional bomb strikes), the decision was clear.

Now please answer my questions from above; help me out.......

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mito:
OK, now I have this question:

Did Hirohito give any signs whatsoever of negotiating a conditional surrender before those criminal bombs?

And a question that wasn't answered: Wasn't Japan bankrupt? (no food, ammunition, etc...)

Statistics would help here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't proove that Japan was not bankrupt...but i think that being bankrupt would not have had an effect...that's what debt is.
They had shortages like Eric said...However, The military controled everything. They made stockpiles of food and arms.
However the Japanese were no where near surrendering. By 1945 Japan was isolated from the outside world by Subs and aircraft. Their navy was in shambles also not having enough fuel to operate. The Japanese were not dumb and could easily see the next offensive would be Japan itself. An ultamatum was dispatched to Japan to surrender or expect total destruction. (which i'm sure they saw as happening through invasion) They rejected the offer.
So then the US is supposed to be nice again and say look guys watch out or you'll be next. By showing them the power of the bomb. Using 1 of 2 they had completed.!
By this time the US had suffered approx 415,000 deaths because of the war and wanted it O V E R. The US wasn't going to just say look they were going to use it.
You can argue that the second was premature and maybe it was...but the use of the weapon was not criminal...it was war. And in war...people die...sad to say but it happens. Japan chose to wage a war of attrition. The side that suffers to much loss is in most cases the looser who sues for peace. Japan chose to wage a war of attrition..in that if we suffer horribly and if the US suffers horribly than thats ok.
Well...the US had a weapon that would beat the Japs at their own game...attrition. The US developed, and used a weapon that would cause massive loss to japan...while making their loss non existent. Once this turning point happened in the war of attrition...the Japs finally new this was the end...whats the point of fighting if we loose all this and they loose nothing.
The US finally forced the Japs to surrender by defeating their last main weapon...there aceptace to loose large amounts of life if they do the same to the enemy. Once this happened there was nothing else to do but surrender...or be extinct as a culture. (which the military i think would rather have had...rather than defeat)...but good thing the emporer had the common sense to end the blood bath and save his people... Look where Japan is today. Modernized and rich without war...and they got there through help from the US.



<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Ron on 18 October 2000 at 05:13 PM</font>

A test would have just resulted in the Japanese moving POWs into cities as hostages.

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Out side is America!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yankee:
A test would have just resulted in the Japanese moving POWs into cities as hostages.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GREAT POINT!!!! I CAN TOTALLY SEE THAT...JUST LIKE THEY LOADED POWS ONTO FREIGHTERS...SO THAT WE'D KILL SOME OF OUR OWN MEN DURING SUB WARFARE!
GREAT POINT YANKEE

Fortunately, those bombs scared not only the Japs, but the whole world as well.

Never again were atomic bombs used over innocent civilians. The first and last time, hopefully!

Peace and love!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erich Hartmann:
Answer to question #2: Bankrupt? I still don't understand what you mean. In terms of massive food, ammunition shortages, etc., yes. But I see where we are going here - This was not heading anywhere fast as Japan showed almost no sign of official surrender before the bomb. When given the alternatives (i.e. Operation Olympic, a continuation of coventional bomb strikes), the decision was clear.

Now please answer my questions from above; help me out.......

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for being willing to surrender being a simplistic idea... I really don't know. What do historians say about this?

About being bankrupt, how could the Japs resist? With swords and bamboos?

This leads to another question: How did american GI's set foot over Japanese soil? Weren't there any skirmishes around the island?

I wouldn't underestimate the Japanese resistance. It would not come to swords and bamboo sticks for quite some time, as their homeland defenses were not something to take lightly.
American occupational forces were not exactly met with flowers and kisses, although there was nothing "solid" that came from the Japanese in terms of resistance. Colonel Cutis L. Jennings of the American detachment to Japan reported that: "Although there is a dictinct air of negativity with these (Japanese) people, their cooperation is a constant." (Bryant)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mito:
As for being willing to surrender being a simplistic idea... I really don't know. What do historians say about this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The populace was probably by now having negative feelings towards the war...hell...i know i would. However the government was run by the military...and they were ready to die fighting...which meant no surrender anytime soon.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>About being bankrupt, how could the Japs resist? With swords and bamboos?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The japs could resist because much of there equipment would have been stored and horded. i doubt bankruptcy would have had an effect for they could just go into debt. (i said this in my post a couple days ago) As eric said it would take awhile before they resorted to fighting with primitive weapons.
That wouldn't happen until they physically couldn't make anymore products after their factories were destroyed.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This leads to another question: How did american GI's set foot over Japanese soil? Weren't there any skirmishes around the island?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Japanese let the allies just walk in not because they were weak or as a sign of weakness. It was a sign of there culture. I'm sure there were isolated events but on the hole the pop. respected the surrender. WHY? because there emporer said too. They respected the emporer...what he said went...and they felt what he thought was good for japan. As long as there was no surrender the japs would fight for the emporer and as soon as he said not to they followed suit.



<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Ron on 20 November 2000 at 08:51 PM</font>

Perhaps the the use of the A-bomb prevented Nuclear war. Becuase as you said it scared the world, perhaps enough to never wanta nuclear war. The pictures of Nagasaki and hiroshima are forever etched in our minds all through the cold war.

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Out side is America!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yankee:
Perhaps the the use of the A-bomb prevented Nuclear war. Becuase as you said it scared the world, perhaps enough to never wanta nuclear war. The pictures of Nagasaki and hiroshima are forever etched in our minds all through the cold war.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"We don't need no nuclear war! With nuclear war we won't get far!"

Peter Tosh

Well put Ron, I think they should have waited a little longer before dropping the other bomb. After a while, I think Japan would have came around.

Isnt it true we didn't have any nuclear capabilities when the A-bomb was made?

How could you not have nucleur capabilities if you just created an atom bomb? I'm not sure what your asking??

If the Americans had invaded Japan, they would have been crushed. Maybe Amercia could have put 650.000 soldiers on the Japanese islands, but don't forget that Japan has a regular army of 2.300.000 on it's islands.

There were two attacks:
* Operation Olympic (on Kioesjoe)
3 Marine Divisons, 8 Infantry Division & 1 Panzer Division

* Operation Cornet (on Honsjoe)