On June 8, 1943, the Japanese battleship Mutsu was rocked by a violent explosion that split the ship in two sections while moored in Hiroshima Bay. The larger front section sank immediately while the aft section remained floating for 14 more hours with its stern pointing toward the sky before it too sank. This led to some lives being spared but the death toll was already high coming in at 1,121 lives lost. Although visibilty at the time was low, a search of the area found no allied craft or submarines in the immediate vicinity. Also eyewitness statements that were made shortly after indicate a magazine explosion in the vicinity of turret number 3. Since Allied war records make no claims of a successful attack in this area all evidence gathered by divers after the fact points to a internal explosion. The final report issued by the Imperial Japanese Navy idicates the explosion was caused by human interference, and leans towards sabotage either by a ring of saboteurs or a disgruntled crewman in the number 3 turret who had been recently been accused of theft. Over the years (1949-1978) portions of the ship have been salvaged and restored where they are now on display in a memorial museum in the city of Towa Cho.

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Bill Murray
Why do we press harder on the remote control when we know the batteries are getting weak?

Quite interesting, Bill!

I certainly did not know about that!

Had it been a Yank submarine it could well had been a very bold attack, similar to Prien's Scapa Flow raid!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

This is something that I didn't know very much about either and had only come across the quick blurb mentioning it when I was gathering information for yesterday's (6/8) Today in the Pacific post. Information in my books and on the web regarding this incident has so far proven to be pretty sparse. If I locate any other amplifying information I'll be sure to post it. As for Prien's Scapa Flow raid you are quite right it was quite a daring and bold attack as would have been any Allied sub penetrating Hiroshima bay.

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Bill Murray
Why do we press harder on the remote control when we know the batteries are getting weak?

I was reading about the ship on this site; http://www.combinedfleet.com/Mutsu.html
Notice on May 5, 1942 gun turrent 5 blew up. I think the incendiaries used in the turret went off and similar to what the US Navy tried to do when a turret blew up, they blamed it on a low ranking crewman that was killed in the explosion. I foget the US battleship's name but it was about 15 years ago. Later they came out and said it was old gun powder that became unstable. Also look at the attempt of cover up by sending the survivors of the Japanese ship to romote outposts. Also looking at the combat record of the battleship from the web site it was not used much in battle during the war.

Seems to me like admirals in both navys think alike and like to cover thier own a**es. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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It was USS Iowa.

On April 19th 1989, an explosion ripped through her Number Two 16-inch gun turret, killing 47 crewmen. The Naval Investigators at first theorized that a crewman named Clayton Hartwig had detonated an explosive device in the turret, killing himself and 46 others, allegedly due to the end of a homosexual affair with another sailor, who survived. This theory was later abandoned, and the cause of the explosion, though never determined with certainty, is generally believed to have been static electricity igniting loose powder. The Captain of the Iowa, Fred Moosally, was severely criticized for his handling of the matter, and the Navy implemented changes in handling for similar guns. Iowa was still able to deploy to Europe and the Mediterranean Sea in mid-year. Turret Two remained unrepaired when she decommissioned in Norfolk for the last time, 26 October 1990.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Thanks General, I remember watching a show about the way the Navy tried to hang it on Clayton and how much grief it caused his family. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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And that was also one of the reasons for the future 'Don't ask, don't tell' bill about that very uncommon phenomenon of gays in the military (don't you find it amusing, Frederick and Alexander?)

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

TA after reading this a couple of times I couldn't decide if you were aware that the number 5 turret that the site shows as exploding was in fact on the IJN Hyuga, another battleship altogether and occured nearly a full year earlier. Both ships at the time were attached to BatDiv 1 hence the mention of it being included in the narrative on the Mutsu. The earliest mention of type 3 senshikidan incendiary ammunition being used by the Japanese pertains to the night of the battleships at Guadalcanal which was in November of 1942. Given that the Hyuga's Record of Movement doesn't specifically refer to this type of ammunition as the cause and the fact that the explosion occured a full 7 months before the first mention its first use, there is nothing to suggest that the two incidents are linked by the type 3 senshikidan incendiary round.

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Bill Murray
Why do we press harder on the remote control when we know the batteries are getting weak?

[img]redface.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] Ok, I can't read. I got the battleship and Japanese part right. Do I get a prize for that ?

Really though, the part of the disgruntled crewman sounds pretty lame to me. But I will stick to airplanes from now on and let you be the naval expert. It is interesting to read about the incident. Thanks for posting it. [img]graemlins/bb.gif[/img]

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No no no.....by all means....I love the discussion. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page that's all. I for one would not want to believe that someone could do such a thing as to kill other shipmates no matter how upset you were. But the one thing that comes to my mind is the way the Japanese culture, how do I say this, seems to overexaggerate the concept of personnel honor. Combine this with the type of accusation, a crewman being accused of theft, in the context of living on a ship where privacy is a very rare and difficult thing to achieve. It may not be beyond the realm of the possible for this to cause someone who might be on the edge to start with to snap and lash out. Now having said this and having been a sailor, I realize that no system is what we called "sailor proof". I would tend to more readily believe that somebody, possibly taking a shortcut, or just not following the exact procedures along with some other extenuating circumstances combined to cause this accidental explosion.

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Bill Murray
Why do we press harder on the remote control when we know the batteries are getting weak?

Good point about the Japanese culture differences. One of my favorite TV shows is "Iron Chef", and the stuff they like to eat really blows my mind.

Anouther bit of information I remember seeing someplace is there were problems of sabotage on nuclear subs. Not from enemy agents but from crewmen who had problems at home that did not get taken care of and their thought process is to break something so the sub will have to return to port and let them off the boat for awhile longer. Six months underwater with problems at home would really work on a person's mind.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Heck 6 months away from home on top of the water was hard enough, I imagine would have to worse being on a boomer and not able to keep regular contact through the satellite phones or regular mail. At least we had those options going for us. But it wouldn't suprise me either, I saw some people who i thought really had their stuff together do some really strange things only to find out there was trouble back on the home front. It is a very tough position that we put these people in sometimes.

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Bill Murray
Why do we press harder on the remote control when we know the batteries are getting weak?

Second video on the right side

Scuba Channel Japan+wreck

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Wow interesting it is indeed. The sabotage doesn't seem so obscure to me. There were thousands of Coreens and Tawainese who were forced to work in Japan and there might have been some of them among the sailors or maintenance crew.

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It is far more likely an accident. Japanese turret design in terms of safety and flash protection was pretty far behind other major navies at the time. I'll see if I can post up some details on their arrangements later today or tomorrow.

Wasn't the Iowa incident during a rapid fire exercise, and the blame placed on not using (forgetting the step of) compressed air to clear breech/tube of embers of the last powder bag?
Placing new bag(s) atop glowing fragments might enable a "cook-off" of the powder before the breech is closed, and with a shell blocking the tube the guys in the turret are literally cooked?
One can't discard a disgruntled (new buzz word) sailor who may have exacerbated circumstances which may have led to an "accident"?
In more than just these cases....tanks, mortars, handguns, (incidents in other turrets/artillery pieces/ammunition storage)...
A DFO as an explanation is SOP, but there remains other possibilities.

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"Danger Will Robinson!"

I am reading this thread, Skipper, what is a "Coreen"?

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Best Regards,
JW

Now now

Rules say spelling mistakes are not to be "Dog-piled".

I'd be near the bottom, either way

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"Danger Will Robinson!"

Koreans.

I can spell but fat fingers get in the way or sometimes I am positioned off by one letter and end up typing tjomgs ;ole tjos becasie mu rogjt jamd os pff/

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

I wasn't trying to pull his chain, I really didn't know what he was referring to.

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Best Regards,
JW

I'm surprised, looks like he gave us the southern spelling just for us.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!