Japan was like boxer that wouldn't go down. All you could do was keep hitting em'. I think it wouldn't gone on longer than 3 months. Maybe not 5 years, but certainly more than 3 months. We would've had a tough time. As stated before Russia's amphibious warfare tactics were largely undeveloped or possibly non-existant. So they would've had trouble launching an amphibious assault on Japan. America was broke and in debt by early 1945. morale was low on the homefront and the battlefront. I'm not sure how much longer we could've toughed it out. The rest of the world was in no better condition either. The A-bombs were the most logical way I believe. It was the right decision. President Truman had guts. Enough to make such a huge decision as that one. And thats why he was one of our greatest Presidents.

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"The only man who never makes a mistake is the man who never does anything." Teddy Roosevelt

What I´ve read books on the "Enola gay" crew and preparing to drop the A-bomb at least the soldiers never had any doubts. "The bigger the better" was the slogan if it could be dropped in Japan. The scientists might have wanted to reconsider but definitely the soldiers did not.

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A professor of mine was a meteorologist in the Pacific, and on the team planning the invasion of Japan. Their estimates were over 1 million U.S. troops. The casualties of Iwo Jima were the big factor in many estimates. 7000 dead marines in a month for such a small island.

The evidence is there that the Japanese were building elaborate tunnels and stores for the invasion. In August they were ready to move the symbols of the Emperor into special tunnels made for them.

The nation was tired of burying their dead. The nukes were a sure bet to either end the war, or to take out major facilities. It was no worse than the firebombing of Tokyo, the London bombing, the rape of Nanking, or the destruction of Dresden.

My father was in Puerto Rico awaiting shipping orders for the invasion. I have no regrets about the bombings. It is easy to moralize about how horrific this was. It is simply proof that mankind still has a long way to go.

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Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

There have always been crimes.

So crimes are OK.

So A crimes against B are excused because of B previous crimes against A.

this is the Bibilc eye for an eye type of theory - simple minded people do like this a lot , but it has nothing to do with justice.

I hope you're not the kinda person who sees the world through the biblic scope - I know this turns out to be a fashion nowadays in the US of A even at the highest level

Anyway thanks, this was brilliant.

It takes time for a country to admit its crimes, but I would have expected USA being a little more sincere and honest about nuking civilians, than Japan are about what they did in China.

Especialy people like you who don't seem afraid of bold statements and definite judgements (about those Japaneses = fanatic canibals of course)

Think about it was only a few years ago that France officialy admitted the responsability of the French Vichy government into the jewish genocide...60 years after the facts !

Think about the ongoing polemic between France and Turkey about the Armenian genocide.

I know that, with the ongoing wars and policy, USA are not ready now for this kind of debate, but maybe someday...

There are many reasons to understand why it happened, but it's hard to understand some people are still lying to themselves say there's nothing to blame, while feeling so guilty they keep on giving crappy excuses.


You don't aim at civilians, and if you do, you don't say it's OK.

There are no such things as good civilian casualties and bad civilian casualties, a victim is a victim.

Undertand this, otherwise go cry on somebody's else's shoulders when you'll be aimed at.

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http://www.costnet.com/images/skyhawk-pic.jpg

Ted,

I would have to agree with the dropping off the A-bomb as a good idea. However there were also many factors that went with dropping it, besides the U.S. casualties. Another major reason ( and ive stated this before ) was to show Stalin that U.S. had a new and deadly weapon, just in case Stalin had any thoughts. The other reason is because Soviets liberated Machuria and defeated 1 million japs, in less time then anyone ever predicted. A Russian invasion was almost seen as imminent. And if Stalin said "DO IT" it would have been done. By this time Japan had no navy and virtually no airforce. And after taking Berlin and beating the Germans, Japs were a peace of cake to the Russians and everyone knew this. Dropping the bombs would secure the victory for the U.S. and not let Japan fall in communist hands.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

A miss nomer

There will always be civilian casualties in a war, and there will always be war.
Be that human shields, misses, or deliberate.

War has 2 rules
#1 People die
#2 You can't change rule number one.

I'm not the one whining, then, now, or any time in the future.

I didn't say they were all cannibals! You said I did.(for the purpose of Drama), to support your "the view".
I said some were on New Guinea.

If you know how to avoid war (and its 2 rules),
please enlighten us all.

I'm flattered that you think I know the Bible that well, but that wasn't my quote, your playing the (mix & match) game... more Drama.

Why don't you start us off... apologizing for what France did to Libya, Indochina, Canada, and to their own people during their "Revolution", their part in the Spanish Inquisition, their poison gas usage against Germany in WW 1. their selling of weapons worldwide (Mirage fighters/Exocet missiles) on and on and on.

People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.

Looking for a monster?
Look in the mirror

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All opinions expressed here are those of "Little Green Men" and don't necessarily represent views, positions, policy, thoughts, actions, or anything else.

Country/Pop.1939/Military dths/Civilian dths/Jewish Hlcst dths/Total dths/% of pop.
Albania 1,100,000 28,000 200 28,200 2.56%
Australia 7,000,000 40,400 100 40,500 0.58%
Austria 7,000,000 45,000 65,000 110,000 1.57%
Belgium 8,400,000 12,100 52,000 24,000 88,100 1.05%
Brazil 41,500,000 1,000 1,000 2,000 0.00%
Bulgaria 6,300,000 22,000 22,000 0.35%
Burma 17,500,000 60,000 60,000 0.34%
Canada 11,300,000 45,300 45,300 0.4%
China 530,000,000 3,000,000 7,000,000 10,000,000 1.89%
Czechoslovakia 15,300,000 25,000 63,000 277,000 365,000 2.39%
Denmark 3,800,000 1,300 1,800 100 3,200 0.08%
Estonia 1,100,000 40,000 1,000 41,000 3.73%
Ethiopia 14,100,000 5,000 200,000 205,000 1.45%
Finland 3,700,000 95,000 2,000 97,000 2.62%
France 41,700,000 212,000 267,000 83,000 562,000 1.35%
French Indo-China 24,600,000 1,000,000 1,000,000 4.07%
Germany 69,300,000 5,500,000 1,840,000 160,000 7,500,000 10.82%
Greece 7,200,000 20,000 209,000 71,000 300,000 4.17%
Hungary 9,200,000 300,000 80,000 200,000 580,000 6.3%
Iceland 120,000 200 200 0.17%
India 386,000,000 87,000 1,500,000 1,587,000 0.41%
Indonesia 70,500,000 4,000,000 4,000,000 5.67%
Iran 14,000,000 200 200 0.00%
Iraq 3,700,000 1,000 1,000 0.03%
Ireland 4,250,000 100 100 0.00%
Italy 43,800,000 306,400 145,100 8,000 459,500 1.05%
Japan 72,000,000 2,000,000 600,000 2,600,000 3.61%
Korea 23,400,000 60,000 60,000 0.26%
Latvia 2,000,000 147,000 80,000 227,000 11.35%
Lithuania 2,500,000 212,000 141,000 353,000 14.12%
Luxembourg 300,000 1,000 1,000 2,000 0.67%
Malaya 5,500,000 100,000 100,000 1.82%
Malta 300,000 1,500 1,500 0.5%
Mexico 19,800,000
Mongolia 700,000 300 300 0.04%
Netherlnd 8,700,000 7,900 92,000 106,000 205,900 2.37%
Newfoundland 300,000 1,000 100 1,100 0.37%
New Zealnd 1,600,000 11,900 11,900 0.74%
Norway 2,900,000 3,000 5,800 700 9,500 0.33%
Phlppnes 16,400,000 57,000 90,000 147,000 0.9%
P Islnds 1,900,000 57,000 57,000 3.0%
Poland 34,800,000 400,000 2,200,000 3,000,000 5,600,000 16.09%
Romania 19,900,000 316,000 56,000 469,000 841,000 4.23%
Singapore 700,000 50,000 50,000 7.14%
S Africa 10,300,000 11,900 11,900 0.12%
USSR 168,500,000 10,700,000 11,500,000 1,000,000 23,200,000 13.77%
Spain 25,500,000 4,500 4,500 0.02%
Thailand 15,300,000 5,600 5,600 0.04%
UK 47,800,000 382,600 67,800 450,400 0.94%
USA 132,000,000 407,300 11,200 418,500 0.32%
Yugoslav 15,400,000 446,000 514,000 67,000 1,027,000 6.67%
Totals 1,971,470,000 24,456,700 32,326,700 5,754,000 62,537,400 3.17%

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Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

It is interesting to see the numbers in relationship to population. Ten million died in China, but it was a small part of the population. I apologize for how unreadable it is, but it did not transfer too well.

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Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

Seadog,

Estimates in China reach beyond 20 million not 10.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Maybe so, but the numbers of dead in some countries will never be truly known. I used Wikipedia for the data, as they had it in a convenient chart and are usually prety accurate.

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Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

Yes Seadog, I know the chart that you are talking about.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

http://www.francewatcher.org/

I'm not saying anyone is clean,
What I am saying is...
everyone's dirty

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All opinions expressed here are those of "Little Green Men" and don't necessarily represent views, positions, policy, thoughts, actions, or anything else.

It's amazing when you think about it, that at the cost of approxiamtely 100,000 Americans KIA they utterly destroyed the entire Japanese Empire.

The Japanese had one of the largest and most modern navy's in the world supported by excellent naval fliers, and a large veteran army, honed by years of fighting in China.
This entire military apparatus was run into the ground by the USA over four and a half years of combat. It's remarkable that the cost was so low [relatively] to America.

This is not the subject of the thread.

We are talking about Pacific War, and more specificaly about nuking 2 major cities.

The fact you react like a stressed child with your "France has been bad too in history – US is not the only country who comitted crimes" kind of crap just proves that you feel uncomfortable on this subject from a moral point of view, trying to hide behind things that have no relation with the subject.

If I was Russian you would probably talk about Stalin, if I was German, you'd talk about Hitler etc...).

You are impotent to make your point, so you attack the locutor (me) about his country...

Reminds me the pro nazis who think it's smart to beat a dead horse repeating that Stalin was very evil, just like if it could tone down Hitler's crimes.

If I was dumb as you are, I'd say "As long as USA nuked Nagasaki, I don't feel guilty that France did to Lybia" lol....you are just getting better and better.

It is just as stupid as if I said USA deserved the WTC 9.11 tower demolition, because of the May Lai massacre during Vietnam war....bullshit ! 9.11 was a crime against civilians, and there's no excuse for that, did the WTC victims deserved what happened ?

I gave my personal opinion about a fact, I don't judge a country neither a people, but maybe this is beyond your capabilities.

Just keep on asking Fox News to explain to you how the world goes.

I pity you, but I won't loose anymore time answering you, in your schoolyard "maybe it's a crime but your country is not better than mine" debate.

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http://www.costnet.com/images/skyhawk-pic.jpg

As I said, (almost) everybody is (in a war) dirty...

Singling out specific grains in a pile, is...

Who judges what is crime and what is not? You?

Subjective, Yes.

Hypocrisy? No?

Everyone should "CAN" the sanctimonious act.

Everything about a war is lousy.

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All opinions expressed here are those of "Little Green Men" and don't necessarily represent views, positions, policy, thoughts, actions, or anything else.

Directed to chocapic:

So what is your solution to the atomic bombs?

I, as an American feel no guilt of my country, for the atomic bomb. It had to be done. It was war. The japanese "civilians" were making swords and spears. The so called "civilians" would soon become combatants. Unlike Europe where we fought the german military. In the Pacific we fought the japanese military and its civilians. We didn't just fly over and drop the bomb. We specifically chose high military industry cities with a low population. Can you imagine what would have happened if we dropped in on Tokyo. As stated by Paul Tibbits "I don't feel bad about dropping the bomb. I feel bad that those people were there and had to be killed. But it had to be done. We had to drop it. We all knew that, and we just wanted to get it over with and end the war.".... End the war. It ended the war. The U.S. doesn't have to apologize for the atomic bomb. It was war. Japan had no military strength left. All it had were "civilians" soon to be combatants. It wouldn't surrender. So all we had left to bomb were cities.

Did you ever stop to think how many Allies and how many Japanese would have died if we chose the alternative to the A bomb? Winston Churchill estimated a million dead Americans and half that number of British. And millions of Japanese. Japan would have been completely destroyed. Look at pictures of stalingrad from the war. Thats what the whole Japan would have looked like if we invaded. The Atomic bomb actually saved lives. Allied and Japanese lives. Believe it or not.

If we had never dropped the A bomb then this topic would not be a disscusion about the results of the Atomic bomb but a disscusion of the results of the invasion of japan. And I am confident that you Sir, would be on this forum complaining of the numbers of lives lost and the amount of destruction that was a result of that invasion. Saying "we should have dropped the atomic bomb instead of invading and destroying the entire japan and wiping out its people!". And you would still want the U.S. to apologize to japan. For destroying the entire country and decimating it's population. So before you start preaching about how wrong we were for dropping the A bomb and that we should apologize for such a "crime" (as you call it). You should stop and think about what would've happened if we chose the alternative to dropping the atomic bomb.

If there was never an attack on Pearl Harbor. There would have been an atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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"The only man who never makes a mistake is the man who never does anything." Teddy Roosevelt

It had to be done.

that's YOUR opinion

All it had were "civilians" soon to be combatants. It wouldn't surrender. So all we had left to bomb were cities.

speculation

Did you ever stop to think how many Allies and how many Japanese would have died if we chose the alternative to the A bomb? Winston Churchill estimated a million dead Americans and half that number of British. And millions of Japanese. Japan would have been completely destroyed. Look at pictures of stalingrad from the war. Thats what the whole Japan would have looked like if we invaded. The Atomic bomb actually saved lives. Allied and Japanese lives. Believe it or not.

speculation, again. Allied lives for sure, Japanese civilians how many ? Maybe alot maybe not, the whole question is nuking on the basis of a maybe. Please read Eisenhower's comments, who a more subtle approach


And I am confident that you Sir, would be on this forum complaining of the numbers of lives lost and the amount of destruction that was a result of that invasion. Saying "we should have dropped the atomic bomb instead of invading and destroying the entire japan and wiping out its people!". And you would still want the U.S. to apologize to japan.

more speculations (*)

If there was never an attack on Pearl Harbor. There would have been an atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Pearl Harbor was a military agression, and the start of a war, which is also a crime in my mind higly condemnable (even if not aimed at civilians in itself).

Don't get me wrong, in absolutely no way USA can even compete with Japan in the war crimes committed during WWII league, WWII came to USA in the form of an agression from an hegemonic empire, and not only USA defended itself but also they freed other countries which had fallen to facism, at the cost of thousands american lifes, not even speaking about the $ spent on war effort.


* What is pissing me off is : I can't express my personal opinion that aiming at civilians is criminal, uncluding Hiroshima and Nagasaki, without having some people react like if I was anti American, despising USA and it's people, which IS WRONG.

Why can't some people accept that I don't share at all their opinion on this subject without being their enemy or the enemy of their country ?

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http://www.costnet.com/images/skyhawk-pic.jpg

How can you bomb anything of military value in Japan that does not include civilians among the casualties at that time? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both military targets. I hold the allies round the clock bombardment of Dresden and the firebombing of Tokyo to be more criminal than the A-bomb attacks. The negative reation to the A-bombs is not that it killed so many people, but that one plane, carrying one bomb, could do it. The concept was scary then, and it is even scarier now. Never in the history of mankind, have we made such a leap in distructive ability.

People imagine that if Hitler, or Tojo had developed the bomb first, what could have happened. Instead of fighting off hundreds of bombers, it would only take one getting through to level London. One seaplane sneaking in, could wipe out Pearl Harbor, San Diego or San Francisco.

Fear changes people. Even though there are many ways that our enemies today, can create destuction and chaos, we collectively have a greater fear of nuclear bombs than most anything else.

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Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

Of course when invasion of Japan would come, the Allied troops (not only US) would not exactly be received with flowers. Estimates exist (speculation, you will say, but when will speculation be statistics, when they suit your taste?) on likely casualties on both sides and numbers are much higher than the actual casualties from the 2 bombes.

The alternative as viewed at the time was to drop the bombs as a show of force in order to impress on the Japanese leadership the need to surrender. It worked.

Is it unfortunate that civilians died? Certainly. Civilians were dying in appalling numbers especially during city bombings, be they Guernica, Rotterdam, Coventry, London, Hamburg, Berlin, Essen, Osaka, Kobe, Tokio, whatever. In terms of cold numbers, the casualties caused by the 2 atomic bombs were not extraordinary as compared to a regular large raid on Tokio, so why single them out? For emotional reasons?

At the time the atomic bombs were viewed as something like extremely large bombs, Grand Slam king-size. They did not carry the emotional load that was later generated during the Cold War. No CND at the time (the discussions I used to have in my Cold War days - not about this, but about the neutron bomb etc - had this dream quality and left me with an impression that I was banging my head against a wall!)

All this has been discussed in higher forums and by brighter minds than ours. We must not generate bad blood over a question on which we are not reaching consensus, that is quite frankly above our heads, and will still be running long after we are all dead.

In short, in my opinion yes, civilian deaths are unfortunate (hell, I'm a civilian!) and yes, the bombs were justified.

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