Thank you Colonel,

It was a different time back then.

Take care,

__________________
All the Best
Jack

Your welcome, You remind me of my Barber who always tells me "they just don't think like us." He was a Corpsman at the Chosin Reservoir and one I trust with a straight razor. Nothing like a good shave.....also different back then.

__________________
Coir a glaive

Nemo me impune lacessit

Is the Strategic Bombing Survey accurate for the situation in Japan? Their estimate of the Strategic Bombing impact in Europe is under-exaggerated.

From what I've read, Japan was due for some starvation in a couple months due to the submarine blockade. I'm also pretty sure that the first victims of starvation are children and old people. Though old people don't matter much in terms of a country's viability, the children definitely do.

Let's put it this way; I greatly prefer talking about this rather than having to talk about "Was Operation Olympic Justified".

As for morals...I'm pretty sure that the world was operating under the principles of Total War at the time being.

This is an hypothesis.

If you check previous posts on this very thread, you'll see that many people, including Eisenhower, Mc Arthur etc thought this hypothesis was bullshit pure and simple.

__________________
Children of rape and incest must live, their fathers must fry on the electric chair.
21st century FTW !

Chocapic,

Thank you for your opinion, the correct spelling of the General's name is MacArthur.

__________________
All the Best
Jack

Thanks for this important clarification, SWPV, I thought it was Mc Arthur like Mc Enroe Mc Donalds etc

It has often been said on this subject that the alternative was nuke or Olympic, at least it was the official story.

If you read Truman's speech just after Hiroshima, you'll see that it's already propaganda : he says he dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, a military base (), in order to spare the life of hundreds of thousands young Americans.

But many very high ranked officials, politician and military personel thought at the time (again - scroll dow this thread to read their quotes) that the most probable outcome was a quick collapse of Japan, without having to launch nuke neither Olympic operation.

My point is not that Olympic would have been better than the nukes, I just like to remind that there was a third valid option.

__________________
Children of rape and incest must live, their fathers must fry on the electric chair.
21st century FTW !

From all I've read both in these forums and elsewhere Olympic was still a go in August of 41. There is a good chance that as the intelligence picture got clearer they would have postponed it until 46. In this case Japan might have surrendered before the invasion. On the other hand if the war went on even another month or two the Japanese casualties would likely have been significantly higher famine and continued conventional bombing would likely have seen to that.

My Grandfather spent about 8 months in Japan immediately following the surrender, mostly in and around Tokyo, or what was left of it. It was his impression that they were very well armed and willing to fight. He remembered seeing stacks upon stacks of surrendered weapons (sending two home that are now mine) that the US was destoying. He say long sticks, sharpened on one end that women were going to try to use, for what success they would have had, I don't know. He believed until the day he died that the war would have cost him his life had the bombs not coerced the Emperor into calling for the end of fighting.

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

Excellent point Jeff, The whole point of the Atomic bomb was to prevent more American casualties like those suffered in Peleliu, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. The Bushido code and the Japanese propaganda as well as Kamikaze attacks, including that of the Yamato were certainly ample reasons for the President to choose the bomb over the invasion of Japan by ground troops.

__________________
Coir a glaive

Nemo me impune lacessit

This is all good saying that with hindsight , but could you live with sending extra Allied troops to there death , just to save Japanese lives

I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but Japan was anything
but a unified mind with respect to the war. The population was
tired and wanted it to end. Many in the government wanted it to
end too but were too afraid of the military. Several politicians
were assasinated before the war because of their opposition.

There is even some question as to whether the Emperor really wanted
the war but just went along because the military would have deposed
him otherwise. And, of course, there is the frightening episode
where renegade officers tried to stop the surrender broadcast.
That event's success hung by a thread.

The two planes that carried the Japanese surrender delegation to
Iwo Jima had to be extremely cautious lest they get shot down by
their own planes.

The book, "Dear General MacArthur", documents hundreds of thousands
of letters civilians sent to him thanking him for ending the war.

PacwarPJ

Yes, it's true that there were divergent opinions in Japan before the war started. But once the shooting started, the pro-war side had the upper hand and opposition was muted.

I would venture to say that if foreign troops had invaded Japan, the fighting would indeed be very bloody and would have galvanized the Japanese into fighting even more. They have been conditioned into it from years of war.

Also, there would also be Japanese units or groups who would have attack invaders on their own initiative. They would rather go down fighting instead of seeing enemy troops on their own soil. I cite the Battle for Manila when Japanese naval units ignored orders declaring the city an open city and chose to fight off US troops on their own. If that's how fanatical the Japanese could be on an occupied land, just imagine how fanatical they could be on their own soil.

As to the different opinions of the US upper brass, that's just about it. They're just opinions. Still, they're valid. Personally for me, I'd take the view of the grunts on the ground.

It is amazing to me that it still took 6 days after the second atomic bomb, 9 after the first, for the Japanese to accept the surrender terms.

In other words, they still had people arguing for the continuance of the war even after that, and apparently numerous and powerful ones.

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

I've always wondered why we didn't drop the first bomb in a relatively uninhabited area to demonstrate the destructive ability of the weapon and then warn the Japanese the next one would be on a major military target.

__________________

It is sometimes harder to fight my superiors than the French.
-Heinz Guderian

I believe that there are two reason behind this.

1. The United States only had a handful of bombs.

2. If the bomb fell and did not explode, well the Japanese envoy would exactly be shaking in their boots.

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Also what if the bomb landed somehow relatively intact? Dont want to give away any secrets LOL. One thing I agree with that others have said is that hindsight is always 20/20. And also that if you weren't alive during that period then you really can't know what the views and opinions of those that were in charge and with the information that they had at the time were. Nor of the common civilians and Military.

__________________
For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

I can understand the line of reasoning concerning a limited amount of bombs...how many did the US actually have available?
However, the unexploded ordnance issue would be an issue whether it was dropped in a rural area or a city/military target.

__________________

It is sometimes harder to fight my superiors than the French.
-Heinz Guderian

I belive that the U.S. had 4 total? 1 it tested, 2 which were dropped and 1 more just in case.

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

For the same reason that the Japanese didn't tell the people at Pearl Harbor that they were about to bomb the Island

__________________
Coir a glaive

Nemo me impune lacessit

Hello Fellas,

If someone might believe Hiroshima was not a military target they would be over looking the fact the city contained the 2nd Imperial Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was an embarkation port, communications center, a weapons storage area, ammunition depots, barracks and assembly areas for training and drilling of a large garrison of troops.

Attached Images

map2e.gif (13.7 KB, 3 views)

__________________
All the Best
Jack