The Battle of Surigao Strait, the second of four battles that make up the Battle of Leyte Gulf, was fought in the early morning hours of 25 October 1944. This battle saw the US cross the “T’ of the Japanese force and included the last battleship gun duel the world has seen. The Japanese force during this battle included the cruiser Mogami. On the 24th Mogami had received some slight damage from strafing aircraft in the Sulu Sea, but now was ready to fight. As the force is attacked entering the strait battleships Fuso and Yamashiro are hit by torpedoes while destroyer Yamagumo is also sunk and Michishio is disabled. Mogami pushes ahead and at around 0350 is hit with four 8” shells starting a few fires and killing the Captain. After attempting to flee the well built ambush by American Forces Mogami has her fate sealed by the Nachi. The two ships collided at 0429 leaving a hole on the Starboard side just above the waterline. Fire finally reaches her torpedoes and explosions put the ship in serious danger as she loses her starboard engine and speed drops to less than 20 knots. She is hit with ten to twenty more shells before successfully fleeing the battle. While retreating the Mogami’s ports Engine breaks down and she is left dead in the water. After a half hour adrift Mogami is finally hit with two 500 lb bombs at 0902.
The order to abandon ship is given and at 1240 the destroyer Akebono scuttles the ship.

Although battle damage played a big role in her demise I believe that she could have easily escaped had she not collided with Nachi. The severe damage caused by the torpedo explosions did nothing to assist the matter and in my view also played a large role in her sinking.

__________________
Anyone who clings to the historically untrue--and thoroughly immoral--doctrine that 'violence never solves anything'... Violence, naked force, has settled more disputes in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." Robert Heinlein

Mogami also had collided with her sister Mikuma during the Battle of Midway in 1942. She bent her bow in the collision, but Mikuma's oil tanks were ruptured, leaving a trail for USN Dauntlesses to follow - in the subsequent attacks on 6 June, both ships were bombed. Mikuma did not survive her damage, especially when her torpedoes were touched off, and she sank.

The only thing that saved the Mogami at Midway was the fact that her Captain ordered that all of her torpedoes be fired, to remove the risk of them exploding, due to fire or further battle damage. The Mikuma did not follow suit and suffered temninal damage from exploding torpedo warheads duing the US Carrier Air Raids on the pair. As it was, the Mogami was out of the war for nearly two years, undergoing repairs.

I hadn't read this for ages thanks fo reminding me. I didn't know about the torpedoes. It was a difficult but wise decision.

__________________

Funny how fate seems to come around full circle in the end

__________________
Anyone who clings to the historically untrue--and thoroughly immoral--doctrine that 'violence never solves anything'... Violence, naked force, has settled more disputes in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." Robert Heinlein

I've read accounts of warship designs that were critical about US cruisers having no torpedo armament, but I believe the USN's decision was based on a concern about what would happen if shipboard torpedoes exploded under enemy fire, as demonstrated by Mikuma and Mogami.

That makes sense, I never thought about that.

__________________

unfortunately, it may have helped the japanese in sinking four allied cruisers at savo.

Considering how the Allied cruiser force was surprised off Savo, it's doubtful that torpedoes would've been any more effective than their gunfire - it's more likely they would've been set off by Japanese fire, with a resulting higher loss of life.

Savo was a "Black" Comedy of errors for the Allies.

The Soc-3 floatplanes (and their fuel) did a good enough job of subduing the Northern forces efforts of fighting back & operating unseen, or at least partially "masked". I believe one of the three Cruisers had 5 aboard? Most had at least 3.
They burned brightly with their fuel stores once hit, and could not be extinguished. Making all three perfect night targets and inhibiting their abilities to aquire targets or to effectively man secondary guns. Cutting the ships in half, so to speak.
The big turrets got in some good salvos (Chokai's chartroom/& a main turret?) before the long lances and gunfire, and searchlights, and fire, and smoke, and losses of power/headway/maneuverability, lists, made it a hopeless effort of "valiant" yet already defeated sailors.
The "mid" position for the launch/carry (for float planes was discontinued), and moved to the stern in future models. Too late for Savo.
Suprise and torpedoes go hand in hand, (especially at night), but usually only if you're the one attacking.

Didn't Graf Spee have tubes on the stern? A better idea?

__________________
"Danger Will Robinson!"

the long lance was more effective than cruiser gunfire in more ways than one. and there were many more effective uses of japanese torpedos which you would not write off as recurring comedies of error.

Of course torpedoes were more effective in most cases.
Even in defense --Tassafaronga? Especially at night against line ahead formations, and the narrow Slot.
Savo was a Black comedy of errors.
I did not say all torpedo successes were comical.
At Savo Allied leadership was in turmoil from the git-go & throughout. Chicagos' Captain shot himself afterwards. He thought they were going to blame him, which was a combination of profound foresight & guilt.
Gunfire played (with the exception of Leyte) one of its greatest roles at Savo. It wrecked all guns, and put the Northern force dead in the water, not to mention the fires caused by the float planes and hangers which made them "self-illuminating" targets which enabled the Japanese to turn off their searchlights (to avoid being return targets).
Vincennes was hit 57 times before two possibly three torpedoes finished off an already totally out of commission, blazing wreck of a ship.
Astoria was hit 65 times, and totally out of commission, on fire from stem to stern, and it's doubtful any torpedoes hit her.
Quincy was hardest hit of all, an uncountable number of shells and a totally out of commission inferno before one torpedo finished her.
One of Canberras' torpedo hits came from an American destroyer on her starboard side (away from the Japanese)(she sailed into it in an attempt to gain access for her guns), her demise was from gunfire. She was finished off by Allied ships with torpedoes and gunfire.
Which is all what makes this encounter so interesting, and not the norm.
There is a quote I'll have to look up, when I find it I'll post it. It pretty much says it all.

__________________
"Danger Will Robinson!"

Yes, I have read the same. IIRC the US did not think it worth the risk. Cruisers where fighting and there guns still thought "needed on the battle line." The risk was worth the destroyer
This I agree with partially. I think they where essential for the suprise of the southern force, but the northern force I believe would have still been beat by gunfire alone. They simply were not ready for battle.
This I disagree with. There are plenty of examples where they simply use the destroyers to launch a torpedo attack anyways. Leyte? Three blew up because of them and none where launched by any cruisers I know of. besides the torpedo is only as good as its aim. Java Sea. How many torps were launched? 80? 90? All they hit where thier own ships.

The torpedo's had potential for a cruiser and thats why I say they should keep them. However they should have gotten rid of the reloading gear. Most that did cook off were the spares

__________________
Anyone who clings to the historically untrue--and thoroughly immoral--doctrine that 'violence never solves anything'... Violence, naked force, has settled more disputes in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." Robert Heinlein

But how many of them were due to cruiser torpedoes? The torpedoes on the Japanese cruisers were even more of a damage control problem than those on other countries ships. The reloads which could not be jettisoned as quickly and the oxygen used in fueling them were additional headaches.

per Java sea...
92 Long Lance were fired in the first salvo....no hits (perhaps the Kortenaer) which blew up (mine or torpedo, who knows).
60 MOS were again fired with two hits which sunk DeRuyter & Java. A 2% hit rate of the 152 fired.
The Japanese (in seven hours) fired 1,619 - 8" shells for 5 hits (4 were duds), and 2,215 - 5" shells for no hits. These percentages don't even measure. The allies did equally bad (for accuracy), and definitely got the short end of the stick.
Still....cost effective? (in this case)....is iffy.
A good weapon, no doubt, but as was said....You can still miss.

__________________
"Danger Will Robinson!"