Dropping of the atomic bombs... saved lives? - Page 5

JCFalkenbergIII · #**101** (**permalink**) July 25th, 2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devilsadvocate

Well, you're wrong. In April, 1945, the Japanese government decreed the existence of the People's Volunteer Combat Corps. This law placed every Japanese man between the ages of 15 and 60, and every Japanese woman between the ages of 17 and 40, under military discipline and made them subject to military training and duty; in effect, they became part of the Japanese military and ceased being "civilians." Overall, this group numbered some 20 million people. In addition, large numbers of Japanese "civilians" were exempted from military service because they were employed in war production plants in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Any, and all, of these people were legitimate targets of military attack under the various Geneva and Hague conventions defining "civilians".

In actual fact, there were very few people, probably fewer than 20,000, in either Nagasaki or Hiroshima who could be accurately labeled "civilians", and only a handful of these people were injured or killed in the atomic bomb attacks.

If you're going to argue, at least get your facts straight.

Exactly. When faced with the facts he tries to weasel out of what he Stated. First they were ALL "peaceful". Then he changed what he stated when it was shown he was wrong. The post I made about explains the plans that the Japanese had and were implementing.ALL were going to be used by the Japanese government as soldiers.

Za Rodinu · #**102** (**permalink**) July 25th, 2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soviet man

Soviet forces go to Japan because allies open the second front.

So the Soviet Union did not have a free will, the Soviet Union was the obedient lackey of the Capitalists?

Soviet Man, if that's the propaganda you were taught then I'm sorry for you. You were given more than enough reference here to read about the subject. I suggest you read some of it and THINK a bit, then come back with decent arguments that can stand on a leg.

brndirt1 · #**103** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 02:19 AM

if it doesn't post because of that length, I apologize. The "atomics" have long been a section of WW2 I have looked at. That said;

London, Aug., 8, 1945 - Foreign Commissar Molotov's announcement of the declaration of war, as broadcast by Moscow, follows:

On Aug. 8, People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the U.S.S.R. Molotov received the Japanese Ambassador, Mr. Sato, and gave him, on behalf of the Soviet Government, the following for transmission to the Japanese Government: "After the defeat and capitulation of Hitlerite Germany, Japan became the only great power that still stood for the continuation of the war. The demand of the three powers, the United States, Great Britain and China, on July 26 for the unconditional surrender of the Japanese armed forces was rejected by Japan, and thus the proposal of the Japanese Government to the Soviet Union on mediation in the war in the Far East loses all basis.

"Taking into consideration the refusal of Japan to capitulate, the Allies submitted to the Soviet Government a proposal to join the war against Japanese aggression and thus shorten the duration of the war, reduce the number of victims and facilitate the speedy restoration of universal peace. Loyal to its Allied duty, the Soviet Government has accepted the proposals of the Allies and has joined in the declaration of the Allied powers of July 26. The Soviet Government considers that this policy is the only means able to bring peace nearer, free the people from further sacrifice and suffering and give the Japanese people the possibility of avoiding the dangers and destruction suffered by Germany after her refusal to capitulate unconditionally. In view of the above, the Soviet Government declares that from tomorrow, that is from (mid-day local Far Eastern time) Aug. 9, the Soviet Government will consider itself to be at war with Japan." (Soviet declaration of War)

(then see) Surrender of Japan

There were always peace and war factions in Japan itself. As Japan continued to lose the war, leading politicians tried to walk the changing line between reducing the suffering of the people in a lost cause and national pride of never having been defeated. Decisions to change policy were, by tradition, unanimous. To make a change as dramatic as surrender was difficult to bring about. Some hoped to enlist Russia on their side or at least to open trade in war materials. The War faction believed Japan retained the capability to win one final battle: the invasion of the home islands. The empire was amassing their most powerful weapon, the kamikaze, in the form of airplanes, motor launches, submarines, and human torpedoes. The people were rallied (as with Churchill-like speeches "We will fight them on the beaches ..."; in the Japanese mode, "it will be time for the bamboo spear".

People were told if they did not take an allied soldier with them, they did not deserve to die for the Emperor. The peace faction, not denying that the military could throw back the invasion, simply observed that there would be a second invasion that would succeed after the kamikaze were gone. Upon the successful testing of the atomic bomb, the Americans believed Japan could be forced to quickly surrender and enlisted the allies at Potsdam on July 26th, 1945 to prepare a proclamation defining the conditions for the surrender of Japan. Japan made no response, thereby rejecting the last chance to negotiate for peace.

The war in Europe had ended in May 1945. Stalin's Soviet was "obligated" by agreements made at Yalta, Feb 11th, 1945, to both enter the war in the Pacific within two to three months of VE day and join the UN post-war. On April 5th, the Soviets announced their intention to not renew the Neutrality Pact signed April 13th, 1941, at a time before either had entered into a war. Word came from attaches in Europe that Allied troops in Europe were being sent to the Pacific. The Red Army began massing troops on the Mongolian border. Oil was so short in Japan (they were distilling pine roots for fuel), they could no longer fight except on the home islands; she could not fuel planes to defend from the air raids that were destroying military production. All defenses were conserved for the final battle, even as B-29s proceeded unopposed.

The first atomic bomb was dropped on August 6. It was not until President Truman addressed his own nation the next day that the leaders in Tokyo understood what had happened. They had been assured by their scientists there was not enough uranium in the world (an opinion held by Heisenberg in captivity at Farm Hall in Britain at the time also, BTW) to allow a repeat an atomic attack and that wearing white clothing would most likely defeat the bomb.

On August 9th, the Japanese ambassador to Moscow was told of the repudiation of the existing treaty as a means to bring peace nearer and at the request of its allies, a state of war existed. Two hours later, Soviet troops attacked the hollow shell of the remaining Japanese troops in Manchuria. (and the same day, the second atomic was dropped on Nagasaki)

The Imperial cabinet meeting over the night of 9-10 August was deadlocked with six in favor of surrender under certain conditions, three to fight on until after the final battle had shown Japan's will, and with five neutral members. Issues discussed that night were: that the Emperor must remain; that Japan must disarm her own troops and not surrender arms to a foreign power; and that Japan must try her own war criminals. Word came during the meeting that a second city had been destroyed by atomic attack. The meeting was moved to an audience with the Emperor who listened to the arguments on both sides and concluded that the time had come to "bear the unbearable". The Emperor had no direct authority other than the loyalty of those who would listen to him. A diplomatic message was drafted to the Allies describing Japan's conditions of accepting the Potsdam proclamation.

The army felt that the troops must be keep fighting until the terms were formally agreed and broadcast this announcement. "We shall fight on to the bitter end, ever firm in our faith that we shall find life in death ... and surge forward to destroy the arrogant enemy." The peace side decided to counteract the martial effect of that news release with an announcement of their own. This was for several reasons. The government sponsored news agency was in Morse code only and not covered by military censorship; it would speed the receipt of the Japanese offer going through diplomatic channels and could possibly postpone destruction of another city; and it was hoped that rejoicing created among the allies by an end to the war would make them unable to reject Japan's counter offer. On the morning of the 11th, the army was furious, but did not resort to violence. That evening the Emperor agreed to broadcast to the nation on acceptance of the offer.

The stern Allied response, written by the Americans and approved by the Allies, was also released by radio news to let Japan know under what terms the agreement was accepted. It was received about midnight August 11-12, eighteen hours before the diplomatic note. As word spread within the government, about midnight of the 13th, a plea was made to commit twenty million lives (kamikaze) to victory. On the morning of the 14th Allied leaflets erased the secrecy of the negotiations. Noon on the 14th saw another imperial conference in which the three military leaders in the cabinet spoke for rejection: the Emperor considered the Allied response to be acceptable. The cabinet met immediately after and endorsed the Emperor's wishes, thereby making the acceptance legal. By three in the afternoon, the government Morse code station announced that an "acceptance will be forthcoming soon." The Allies stopped attacks and went on alert status.

A coup attempt was to be expected. Insurgents assassinated the commander of the Imperial Guards and issued orders under his name, but the insurrection was put down by morning. Separately, the War Minister committed suicide. Also overnight, the Emperor recorded his address to the nation which was broadcast at noon, 15 August. Wording was so carefully drafted, about saving innocent lives from a new and cruel bomb, that it was not immediately known that it meant full surrender. The cabinet resigned as a duty and an Imperial Prince was made premier.

The argument that those two cities were simply "innocent civilian" population centers with no military value is bogus, one should keep this in mind as well when discussing the two cities which were hit, please try to remember that from the time of the Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895), the Imperial Headquarters, the command center for war, and the new Military Preparatory School were all established in Hiroshima. This gave its Ujina Harbor a distinctly military distinction from then on. Every time Japan became involved in any military action in Asia, Hiroshima was the base for education of officers, training, assembly and dispatching of troops, and everybody knew it. As years went by, Hiroshima's military facilities grew more numerous and substantial.

By 1945 Hiroshima held these "purely innocent civilian" installations; the 2nd General Army Headquarters, Chugoku Military District Headquarters, always the home of the 5th Division (participated in the Nanking occupation ["rape of"] 1937), 59th Military Headquarters, 224th Division marshaling/training area, 154th Division training, Marine Transport Headquarters, Mitsubishi Heavy Industry yards, Ujina Harbor Kawasaki ship-yards. Yup, nothing but innocent "civilians" living there. BTW, everybody in the west who cared knew of the Nanking atrocities, since this was the same time and place where the river-gunboat USS Panay was attacked and sunk (along with two Standard Oil tankers), even the Nazi backed businessman John Rabe was appalled by that set of atrocities.

Then from the beginning of the Showa (Hirohito) period through World War II, about 50 % of the commercial ships for transporting goods and such were built in Nagasaki. And as to "warships", one might be enlightened to trace the origin of the ships; "Hyuga", "Kirishima", "Musashi" (the "Yamato's" sister giant battlship), the auxiliary carriers; "Hiyo", "Junyo", the design built carriers; "Chuyo", "Unyo", "Taiyo", "Kaiyo"," Amagi", "Kasagi", or the crusiers "Sendai", "Natori", "Kiso", "Tama", "Furutaka", "Aoba", "Haguro", "Chokai", "Mikuma", "Tone", "Chikuma", and the all the destroyers.

Now, the destroyers produced there are too numerous to even consider putting on here, the list is already too long. Nagasaki was also the home to the Nagasaki Steel Works, Mitsubishi Electric Works, and Mitsubishi Munitions plants. It was also the designated center for the defense of Kyushu Island headquarters for the planned and in place Ketsu-Go defense plan which can be reviewed at:

OPERATION KETSU-GO

Then just for "kicks and giggles" read Emperor Hirohito's "Imperial Rescript" which opened the 87th Diet on June 9th, 1945. To sort of get the "drift" of the Japanese "mindset" at the moment, and remember that the entire Imperial Japanese populace still lived with such deep respect for the Emperor, that only the Imperial Will and "HIS" words (which no one had ever heard outside the government) could stop this war. Then read Premier Suzuki's speech which followed Hirohito's on the same day.

These sections from an article published and reproduced at:

Transcript of "OPERATION DOWNFALL [US invasion of Japan]:* US PLANS AND JAPANESE COUNTER-MEASURES" by D. M. Giangreco, US Army Command and General Staff College

And will better explain my position here than any "wishful thinking" about the dropping of the "atomics" in the negative using what we know today; rather than what anyone knew about them (and their after-effects) at the time. That is using the lens of hindsight at it worst! I will start with this section; "...Some today assert, in effect, that it would have been more humane to have just continued the conventional B-29 bombing of Japan, which in six months had killed nearly 300,000 people and displaced or rendered homeless over 8 million more. They also assert that the growing US blockade would have soon forced a surrender because the Japanese faced, quote: "imminent starvation." That is not only unlikely, but wishful thinking using western caloric needs rather than Japanese.

Oddly enough, many if not most of those men and women working on the Manhattan Project had NOT thought of the eventual effects of either the bomb itself, nor its impact on the environment. They approached it as a "sweet" engineering and theoretical challenge.
Even after the successful "Trinity" test of the plutonium implosion type "gadget", the radiation detected was NOT considered. It seems that they assumed (incorrectly) that the radiation effects observed in the production of the totally "non-natural" isotopes necessary for a fission explosion would be "consumed" by the explosion itself.
If one reads the entire set of files at NARA and in the Nuclear Files themselves it becomes apparent that the short tower (100 feet) from which the "gadget" was detonated was held as responsible for the high levels of radiation detected in the soil and in the atmosphere when it was "polluted" by the sand and soil blown into the air. They all considered the radioactivity, and decided that when detonated at about 2,000 feet above the ground the "explosion" itself would have the necessary "time" to consume and thus negate the residual radiation detected in New Mexico.

Nobody really "knew" anything about creating a "radioactive wasteland". That was one of those "unintended" consequences of the bomb itself. didn't know it at the time, but Stalin knew all about the atom bomb, from spies within the Manhattan project. Truman later told Stalin about the bomb, before it was dropped, but was perplexed that Stalin didn't seem that interested in the news.
I don't know exactly how much, or when, Stalin was informed from the spies in the MED. But it is plausible that he knew the project was nearing its final stages. He didn't know exactly when the bombs would be ready, and when the first one was dropped on Hiroshima it might have been a surprise to Stalin, hence his declaration of war between the two drops. But he might have expected that once the U.S. had it, they would use it quickly, and the political aftermath might be uncertain as to the Soviet Union itself.

Possible speculation by Stalin: While the bombs were in development, would the U.S. bomb Berlin if they had the atomics, then take credit for defeating Germany, despite the leadership of Stalin, the sacrifices of the Red Army, and the suffering of the Soviet people? Or would the U.S. bomb some other location in Eastern Germany, thereby utterly destroying assets which were supposed to be part of the Soviet Zone? Or would dropping a bomb on some other German city (similar to our ultimate decision to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) force the Germans to capitulate on American/British terms, and then combine with the Germans to fight the Soviets, all with this dangerous new weapon at their disposal?

Since Stalin always thought along those lines (Machiavellian self-interest), he probably assumed that FDR, Truman and Churchill also thought the same. If they had the weapons they would use them as soon as they could. And don't forget this:

"The Divine Wind, or Kamikaze, of a powerful typhoon destroyed a foreign invasion force heading for Japan in 1281, and it was for this storm that Japanese suicide aircraft of World War II were named. On October 9, 1945, a similar typhoon (Typhoon Louise) packing 140-mile per hour winds struck the American staging area on Okinawa that would have been expanded to capacity by that time if the war had not ended in September, and was still crammed with aircraft and assault shipping- much of which was destroyed. US analysts at the scene matter-of-factly reported that the storm would have caused up to a 45-day delay in the invasion of Kyushu. The point that goes begging, however, is that while these reports from the Pacific were correct in themselves, they did not make note of the critical significance that such a delay, well past the initial (and unacceptable) target date of December 1, would have on base construction on Kyushu, and consequently mean for the Honshu invasion, which would have then been pushed back as far as mid-April 1946.

"...If there had been no atom bombs and Tokyo had attempted to hold out for an extended time- a possibility that even bombing and blockade advocates granted, the Japanese would have immediately appreciated the impact of the storm in the waters around Okinawa. Moreover, they would know exactly what it meant for the follow-up invasion of Honshu, which they had predicted as accurately as the invasion of Kyushu. Even with the storm delay and friction of combat on Kyushu, the Operation Coronet schedule would have led US engineers to perform virtual miracles to make up for lost time and implement Y-Day as early in April as possible. Unfortunately the Divine Winds packed a one-two punch.

"...On 4 April 1946, another typhoon raged in the Pacific, this one striking the northernmost Philippine island of Luzon on the following day where it inflicted only moderate damage before moving toward Taiwan. Coming almost a year after the war, it was of no particular concern. The Los Angeles Times gave it about a paragraph on the bottom of page 2. But if Japan had held out, this storm would have had profound effects on the world we live in today. It would have been the closest watched weather cell in history. Would the storm move to the west after hitting Luzon, the Army's main staging area for Coronet, or would it take the normal spiraling turn to the north, and then northeast as the October typhoon? Would slow, shallow-draft landing craft be caught at sea or in the Philippines where loading operations would be put on hold? If they were already on their way to Japan, would they be able to reach Kyushu's sheltered bay?

And what about the breakwater caissons for the massive artificial harbor to be assembled near Tokyo? The construction of the harbor's pre-fabricated components carried a priority second only to the atom bomb, and this precious towed cargo could not be allowed to fall victim to the storm and be scattered across the sea.

"....Whatever stage of employment US forces were in during those first days of April, a delay of some sort (certainly no less than a week and perhaps much, much more) was going to occur. A delay that the two US field armies invading Honshu, the First and Eighth, could ill afford and that Japanese militarists would see as yet another sign that they were right after all. This is critical. Various authors have noted that much of the land today contains built-up areas not there in 1946, but are blissfully unaware that, thanks to the delays, anyone treading this same, quote: "flat, dry tank country" in 1946 would, in reality, have been up to their calves in muck and rice shoots by the time the invasion actually took place.
Goto that site, read the entire breakdown, then factor in the simple fact that the "Empire of the Sun, was ruled by the divine Son of the Sun Goddess", and the Japanese culture and peoples simply didn't fight nature. They simply rebuilt after the "wrath of the Gods" passed.

If their allied enemies (USA in particular), had harnessed the "power of the Sun", and turned it into a weapon their entire culture was teetering on irrelevance. The "atomics" ended the war for more than their destructive power, or their horrific after-effects which were unknown/misunderstood at the time.

They were more "culturally demoralizing" than the conventional weapons that had NOT brought the war to an end. They could fight fires, famine, and invasion troops, they didn't even bother to fight nature's forces! And don't neglect that sometimes there is a mis-interpretation of the "peace feelers" being diddled around with in Moscow by Sato (diplomat of Imperial Japan) at the behest of Togo back in Tokyo.

We (the US) were reading these telegrams discussing the attempts in real time as they were being sent in the "Purple" diplomatic code which we had broken very early. Neither Stalin nor the Japanese were aware of Truman's constant "up-dating" on this series of telegrams. The Japanese themselves were doubtful that anything of "profit" would come of the offers, as both Stalin and Molotov refused to allow Sato an interview.

To read the telegrams in their totality, goto:

Nuclear Files: Library: Correspondence: Telegrams: Togo-Sato

and follow along. There is little to NO faith in anything "good" coming from the various offers to the Soviets. These are hardly "offers to surrender". The next time they attempted to surrender (through the Swiss) was the day AFTER Nagasaki was bombed on Aug. 10th, when they attempted to demand the Emperor remain in true control of the nation, this was refused. It was only then they were informed that he would be allowed to retain his "throne", but as a subservient to the occupation Commander in Chief (MacArthur) on Aug. 14th that the Imperial Japanese finally "surrendered". His not being tried for "war crimes" was another morsel offered by both Grew (former Ambassador to Japan) and Byrnes in the State Department. This most likely would have been approved of by Gen. MacArthur as he also knew the importance of the Emperor inside of the Japanese society as a whole. This was as much to insure an easy transition to allied occupation, and respect for the C-I-C Pacific as anything.

Remember also that the term "unconditional surrender" does NOT mean no terms, it means the victors will set the terms and the vanquished must accept them with NO adjustments.

And please don't neglect that the "peace-loving" Soviets continued to fight the Japanese after the Potsdam declaration had been accepted by the Japanese. But since the Soviets didn't sign the thing that might be understood. On August 8th 1945, months after denouncing the pact of neutrality between two countries, the USSR entered the war against Japan. The Red Army invaded Sakhalin on August 11th/12th, and eventually crossed the 50th parallel, frontier between 2 countries on Sakhalin (since 1905), and proceeded south. On August 15th, Japan accepted the Potsdam Declaration to end the war. Fearing that the cease-fire line would become the definitive frontier (they had advanced only about 62 miles [100 km] on Sakhalin), they continued to bombard Japanese towns and military positions, and even prepared to invade Hokkaido across the La Perouse Strait. The fighting on Sakhalin didn't stop until August 22nd. Then about 600,000 Japanese, mostly soldiers from Sakhalin, Manchuria as well as Korean forced laborers were taken to Siberia's labor camps and 60,000 among the Japanese have never returned to Japan.

At the 1951 Conference of San Francisco that should have settled the definitive frontier between two countries, it was boycotted by the Soviet delegation (Korean War was going on). And they refused to sign the final document, because it didn't state clearly that south Sakhalin and Kurils would become Soviet territories.

Here is another take on what the Japanese continue to refer to as the Northern Territories of Japan:

"On August 14, 1945, Japan surrendered to the Allies, including the Soviet Union, which had declared war on them a week before. At this time neither South Sakhalin nor the Kuriles had been occupied. The administration of Harry Truman, which was decidedly less friendly to the Soviet Union than Roosevelt's, stated that although the Soviets could occupy the Kuriles, they remained Japanese territory and their ultimate status would be determined by a future peace treaty. Truman also strongly rejected Soviet requests for an occupation zone in Hokkaido.

"Red Army commanders wasted little time in attacking Sakhalin and the Kuriles, the former on August 18 and the latter on August 23. On September 2, the Japanese Foreign Minister Mamoru signed the surrender documents on the deck of the USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay. By that time, the occupation of the Kuriles extended to Shikotan island, and was completed three days later with the occupation of Habomai. The occupation of the Kuriles, especially the islands of Habomai, Shikotan, Kunashiri and Etorofu (the Northern Territories), which had been Japanese territory since 1855, proved to be a bitter pill for the Japanese to swallow, especially since they viewed August 14 as their surrender date.

"According to successive Japanese governments (with little variation), the Northern Territories are and always have been Japanese territories, illegally seized by the Soviet Union after World War II had ended, as part of an arrangement (Yalta) that their rightful owner was not a part of. The Soviet counterpoint is that Japan's actions in World War II violated the 1855, 1875 and 1905 treaties, and their seizure of the Kuriles was a penalty for Japanese aggression against Russian and Soviet territory.
From:

Concept On-Line

Yupper, nothing but peaceful civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and nothing but peace-loving Soviets at the end of the war.

It is to laugh.

JCFalkenbergIII · #**104** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 04:09 AM

Thanks Clint

. Unlike THC you can post longer posts LOL.

Za Rodinu · #**105** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 05:20 AM

Great (and long!) post Clint! Thank you

Soviet Man, also please bear in mind this pragmatic fact: i If the 2 Bombs did cause a large number of casualties (but compare this with the victim count for say the Tokyo fire-bombings) they also ultimatley saved Millions of Japanese lives by accelerating Japanese surrender and avoiding the need for the certain bloodbath and invasion would have been. Oh, and please read Clint's post above and his links.

**SouthWestPacificVet** · #**106** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 05:46 AM

Thank you Clint.

JCFalkenbergIII · #**107** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 05:54 AM

I doubt that Soviet man will read all the facts that we have presented.

skunk works · #**108** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 04:24 PM

Wow !
I have NO questions, and neither should anyone else.

Very thorough.

rep added !

Soviet man · #**109** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 04:59 PM

Please say me! Why we don't use atomic bomb today in conflicts? Because this is dangerous for nature and not only for it! I think to destroy cities with atomic bomb where lives picefull citizens (and don't say to me that in Herosima and Nagasaki were only Japan's forces without picefull citizens) its crime! You can't over-persuade me! And I am not alone with persuasion.

**SouthWestPacificVet** · #**110** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 05:05 PM

JC,

You're right, he didn't read it.

JCFalkenbergIII · #**111** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 06:49 PM

Im not really surprised. Thanks God that we old farts are still around to provide the FACTS. Regardless if some can't see them

.

J.A. Costigan · #**112** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soviet man

Please say me! Why we don't use atomic bomb today in conflicts?

Because no conflict since WWII has been nearly on the scale, nor have any had the severity equal to the situation between the Allies and Japan in August 1945.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soviet man

You can't over-persuade me! And I am not alone with persuasion.

Ok so even if you disagree why not actually read the facts and reasoning posted by others instead of blindly and moronically ignoring them?

JCFalkenbergIII · #**113** (**permalink**) July 26th, 2008, 07:05 PM

There is a difference between being persuaded and IGNORING the FACTS. Soviet man has been proven wrong in his statements he has made yet cannot accept the truth and facts presented to him. It would be interesting to see him refute the information we have presented with some FACTS of his own backed up by the sources he has used to base his distorted opinion on. Its not our job to try to "persude" him. When one comes here with a biased and misinformed mind the best we can do is to provide the CORRECT counterpoints and information so that others will not form the same type of biased and misinformed opinions.