The Jagdtigers were the best of the Tiger series. Good for the Allies as that not many were produced. Then you have the giant Maus, nothing could come near to what that tank could have done had it been produced in numbers and in time.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
The Jagdtigers were the best of the Tiger series. Good for the Allies as that not many were produced. Then you have the giant Maus, nothing could come near to what that tank could have done had it been produced in numbers and in time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Maus, I think, something that big would be a tactical godsend, but a logistical nightmare. Imagine how much fuel that thing used up!!




-Tim

A nightmare in logistics would have been true but, if they were dug-in and used as static defense, they would have whipped any tank attack in their areas.

A great defensive place would have been the Seelowe Heights. They could have also been mounted and transferred on flatcars and or used for train defenses.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
The Jagdtigers were the best of the Tiger series. Good for the Allies as that not many were produced. Then you have the giant Maus, nothing could come near to what that tank could have done had it been produced in numbers and in time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, it was a waste of time, money and resources. The engine was very underpowered, the suspension was under great strain, it was VERY hard to hide, it was slow, clumbersome, the tracks were under great strain also.

I agree it is awsome looking, but it was too big!

The Tiger II was to heavy and underpowered, a vehicle that weighed the same as the Tiger I but with sloped armour would have been better IMHOP.

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I hardly know anything about the maus except for a picture of a captured one. Can someone tell me more about it or tell me a site about it.

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#1) Tanks are mobile weapons, the fist of the attack. You build a pillbox for a defensive position. Yes, tanks work in a defensive role, but, you dont want a vehicle capable of ONLY that role.

The Maus, most likely one of the largest German mistakes of the war, was a 188 ton albatross. There were many other attempts at a Super Heavy, the E-100 being the only other project to get very far. George Forty, a well respected tank expert, writes in his book "Tanks" for Osprey(Osprey publishes good books dont they?) "Both the E-100 and Maus never proceeded past prototype stage, however the amount of industrial effort which both projects absorbed was considerable, so perhaps they were more of a benefit to the Allies than to the Germans"
The Maus weighed in at 188 tons, with a Daimler-Benz 12 cylinder producing 1080 HP (It had a top road speed of 12 mph, cross country about 3-4 mph. The Maus was so heavy it could only travel a short distance without destroying its own suspension. It was armed with a 128 MM AA gun as its main armament, a co-ax 75MM secondary gun, plus a single MG 34. The front glacis, turret front, and front side sections were 240mm thick, just under 10".
The Maus was so heavy and wide it could not traverse almost any bridge, and its ground pressure ratio was so bad, if it attempted to traverse any sort of soft terrain, it would immediately bog down. The bridge problem was pointed out to Porsche, his response was to design a snorkel system claiming that the Maus could traverse any European river by driving along the riverbed. This was never attempted/proven as I would assume it would mean losing a Maus [img]smile.gif[/img] I have argued this point of swimming Mice before, people point out Soviet tanks could do this. Soviet tanks weighed 45 tons and had 800 hp engines, do the math. Think of all the rivers criss crossing Europe and you realize how worthless the Maus would have been, requiring specialized bridges at every crossing. The Maus required special trains to transport it also.
The E-100 was a 100 ton tank armed with a 125mm gun. The only prototype was never completely finished
I have tons of pictures of the Maus and a few of the E100, my favorite sequence of pics are of the design team trying to pull a stuck Maus out of the mud.

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Tiger weak this, tiger weak that... The panther was the way to go....

This is the general response i have read in this topic.... It sounds like the Panther was a brilliant piece of machinery from the moment it was designed. The Panther (especially early models/series) also had many flaws and was not THAT great.

The Tiger E was already a better balanced machine then the early tigers... and remember, no tank was perfect.

I had had the choice between commanding 200 shermans or 80 Tigers..... it would not be a hard choice, would it? Tigers all the way!!

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Im in total agreement there. 80 Tigers would wipeout 200 Shermans with ease--unfortunately.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
Im in total agreement there. 80 Tigers would wipeout 200 Shermans with ease--unfortunately.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And where are these 80 Tigers going to come from?

Tiger 1 was a well balanced machine with good flank/rear protection. In general I'd prefer it to a Panther with its relatively weak flanks.


I know this has little to do with the topic at hand. Sorry.

The Germans built 7,200 Panthers and Tigers of all stripes [img]smile.gif[/img] The US built 50,000 Shermans.
The odds aint 2.5 to 1, more like 5.25 to 1.
425 Shermans to 80 Panthers and Tigers.
Less than 1700 Tigers(all types, including II's) were built.
Me, I will take the Shermans at them odds.
Thrown in 65,000 T34's and the odds get real sad. Nearly 11 to 1.
Allied AFV production: 227,235
German AFV production: 46,857
Allied AFV produced with 75mm or larger gun: 163,600
German AFV produced with 75mm or larger gun:
37,794
European Axis Allied AFV production:less than 3,000
German AFV's include armed hanomag's, and other vehicles.
US totals do not include Bren carriers, Weasels and others that have been included for the Germans. So the numbers are more uneven than this.

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: talleyrand ]

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and why did they have to build so many shermans and t34's ? Cause they got destroyed in large nrs. Germany might have been less powerful in numbers, but don't forget the german AT guns. they are responsible for MANY kills. The 88mm gun was devastating and the PAK40 took its share as wel i reckon. Fact remains that german tanks were superior to most allied tanks (except maybe JSIII and Pershing)

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Facing a Tiger with a Sherman would make me want to turn tail and get my mates...
Now then-I know this is gonna raise alot of controversy,but for the role it played,you don't need any more than a T34/85-it could knock out most tanks(ok-at a shorter ranges......) BUT it could be maintained and operated by idiots,have exellent mobility/reliability,and have adequate firepower/armour.If fitted with the same sights and used by the same men(T34's were used amass by the Nazi's too) and formation/tatics as the Germans-you've got to ask-WHY bother with the Tigers/Panthers-however splendid they might be........

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Yep, Dinger.
Allied AT guns killed many German AFV's also. One of the best example of this is in the book "Nuts" about the Battle of the Bulge. Nice pics of 3 Panthers knocked out, still in perfect formation, their barrels drooping and soot marks on the paint from the fire. Destroyed by a combination of hidden AT guns and Shermans. Another great pic of a Panther upended off a roadway with a hole in its side from a 75mm Sherman.
Panthers and Tigers were superior to their Allied counterparts but woefully outnumbered. The Panther had no equal on the battlefield but, at no time in the war were the Germans ever able to operate 1000 at one time. IIRC, the most Tigers ever serving at one time was around 300. Spread these numbers all over Europe and you get? Not much. Never enough. Panthers and Tigers were grouped into Heavy battalions and brigades attatched to certain Panzer divisions. When one of these units wasnt around, which when you take into consideration their numbers was rare, a Sherman is an equal and a T-34/85 was the King of the battlefield. There were entire sections of the East front without any German tanks. This is where the T-40's, 60's and such were used, against infantry, not against tanks. Germans killed many Allied AFV's with towed AT guns because they HAD to, not because they "just dont feel like sendin' out the tanks today Heiny".
The Germans would have been much better served producing copies of the T-34 with minor improvements, as some in the Army Ordinance Office thought. A T-34 with a cupola, Maybach gasoline engine, L/48 gun(would arrive earlier than Panther, only later aquiring the L/70), and many upgrades arriving in early '42.
And again, its not as if the Tiger and Panther were indestructable Lords of the Battlefield. Their tracks, vision equipment, optics, and other equipment could be damaged just as easy as any other tank. Their armor was in no way impenetrable and even if your shell doesn't penetrate, spalling can kill the crew.

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Whilst reading a few books about the Allied thrust from Normandy through to the Rhineland, I get the impression that due to the total air superiority of the Allies, Tiger tanks were only good for anti-tank purposes (Ardennes offensive not-withstanding). They would position themselves at junctions or corners and blast away at anything that moved. The Tiger was a remarkable machine that scared the bejesus out of infantry and Sherman tank drivers, but to be used almost solely in a purely defensive role must have been frustrating for Tiger Commanders.

Madcap, they would come from Henschel and Porsche, where most did get built at. At least 90 Porsche's were used in operation Citedel, if im not mistaken, and had untested crews so they did not near as well as expected.

The Maus would make an awsome tank as static defense. It would be impossible to knock it out from the front and most likely so from the sides.

I agree, getting the Maus to where it could be used was and would be a nightmare and I wont argut that. The main thing I wanted to say--bearing in mind that the Maus had already been in position, that it would be a very deadly "pillbox" to deal with.

These would be dug-in and as their size demands it, they would most assuredly, have Infantry support. There is nothing that couldnt be knocked-out or destroyed but this could come close to it.

Ive never heard of the E-100, can anyone elaborate?

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[quote]Originally posted by C.Evans:
[QB]Madcap, they would come from Henschel and Porsche, where most did get built at. At least 90 Porsche's were used in operation Citedel, if im not mistaken, and had untested crews so they did not near as well as expected.

The Maus would make an awsome tank as static defense. It would be impossible to knock it out from the front and most likely so from the sides.

I agree, getting the Maus to where it could be used was and would be a nightmare and I wont argut that. The main thing I wanted to say--bearing in mind that the Maus had already been in position, that it would be a very deadly "pillbox" to deal with.

These would be dug-in and as their size demands it, they would most assuredly, have Infantry support. There is nothing that couldnt be knocked-out or destroyed but this could come close to it.&gt;&gt;

Well, my question is: wouldn't it have been a hell of a lot cheaper/more effective, to just design/build a really good pillbox? A Maus turret, perhaps?

-Tim

In 1943 the Germans came to the conclusion that they could never produce enough tanks producing 4 distinctly different models of tanks at once. PIII, PIV, Panther, and Tiger were all rolling off assembly lines at this time. An ingenious solution was reached to solve this problem, the E-series.
The E stands for Entwicklungtypen=Standard type. The E tanks were planned as six tanks that would be very close in design, designed for ease of manufacture, and sharing as many parts as possible. They would be the:
E5,5 ton light tank

E10,10ton light Tank destroyer.

The E5 and E10 would be identical vehicles, the E10 being a turretless model equipped with a L/43 75mm gun, the E5 would have a 20mm canon or L/60.

The E25,25 ton,medium tank destroyer would be an enlarged version of the E10 with an L/70 gun.

The E50,50 ton, tank would replace the Panther and sport the same armament and protection

The E75 would replace the Tiger and sport similar armament and protection

The E100 would be a 100 ton Super Tank, King of the battle field. Armed with a 125mm main gun.

The E tank's were to be made of mostly prefabricated pieces that could be used to make any one of the tanks. Example, the glacis of the E25 would be the same piece the E50 uses as side turret piece, etc. Generic pieces would fly off assembly lines and workers would build whatever type was most needed. Only 3 engines would be used for all six types, all using the same fuel pump, generators, water pumps etc.
When the E plan was initially proposed German factories starting with Adlerwerke, were supposed to switch to the E plan during '44, boosting German AFV production to 4,500/month by July '45(almost US levels).
Mockups and prototypes were started late '43 early '44 but no real progress was getting made. By mid '44 it was clear that the Germans could not afford the down time that would be required to retool factories to the E plan standard. Germany had to have every vehicle they could wring out just to stay alive, they had no luxury to look towards the future.
The only E vehicle that made it to prototype stage was the E100, the rest never made it past the drawing board or mock ups.

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Damn, that's an ambitious plan! A very interesting story too.

Where did you learn about these tanks tallyrand? I'm interested in finding more information on this. Any books you recommend?

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For Tim: It would have been much cheaper to build a good pillbox, but unfortunately(for the Germans) Hitler always insisted on attacking instead of building defenses--which was stupid-to say the least.

Most likely then never thought of the Maus as just a total stagnant defensive weapon, but might have been better off had they done so. It too would have been very wise to have made many such obstacles for defensive operations but, then again, they had Hitler in charge.

These defenses could not have possible stopped the allies, but would have bloodied their noses much more than what did happen. Of course, if these defenses had been made, im sure that most of these men would have wanted a way to escape, if possible.

Using Maus type turrets might not have been such a bad idea. Heh he, its lucky for the allies that the Germans didnt have you around to give them these ideas

For Tallyrand: Excellent information. Im as Herr Rommel is, am interested to know where you got this info from???

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The best source in my posession for this info is:"Panzerkampfwagen Maus und andere deutsche Panzerprojekte" by Sawodny and Bracher,1978. Its in German, but translated copies exist, Im just not fortunate enough to have found one [img]smile.gif[/img] George Forty’s Osprey book “Tanks”,1994, has a small section on them, as does Peter Chamberlains “Tanks of the World 1915 to 1945”,1972. The two latter are in my opinion the two most concise tank books ever produced and together can answer just about any question.
In my opinion the E plan(which went farther then just tanks, it envisioned hanomags, armored cars, trucks, ost tractors, etc to come under this umbrella standard)was just a pipe dream of Speers. Mid '43 is to late to introduce such a far reaching program, altering production methods for almost everything produced.
Again, had the E plan(or similar plan)been introduced earlier in the war, say fall 1940 under Todt,and fully implemented by summer '42 it would be a possible war winner.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: talleyrand ]

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The E100 itself closely resembles a Konigstiger, with extra side skirt armor plates which are removable using jibs carried on the vehicle. The single prototype was never fully completed when captured by the UK. The E100 was being constructed by Henschel, and while it was being designed and built had bloated to the point that the prototype actually weighed 137tons, over a 1/3 heavier than initially designed. Avoiding the E plan by adding on non-interchangeable equipment/parts. Shows the follow through Speer had with the program.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
Thats true but, you have to admit that the Tiger 1's and 2's and the King Tigers were some very powerful cats. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me, C., but the Tiger II and the King Tiger were one and the same. If you'll allow me, as a first timer, to toss in my own 2 pfennigs, the Tiger series was a waste of resources and the existence of the Tiger battalions diluted manpower that was badly needed for the divisional Panzer regiments. My dream tank of the war is the Panther II--the Panther's speed and lighter weight coupled with the 88mm KwK43, and hopefully in a more serviceable package. Lacking that, I'll have to go with the Panther G.

Your ob't servant,
Paul