Have you heard about a fight between....

C.Evans · #1 (**permalink**) June 1st, 2001, 11:29 PM

75 T-34s against a Platoon of Tiger II's. I don't know details but, I think it was at Kursk. If not at Kursk then definately during some major battle on the Eastern Front.

There were 75 T-34's engaged with a Platoon of Tiger II's. The Tiger II's destroyed 41 T-34's from that unit, before they were attacked by a Brigade of T-34's coming from another direction.

Does anyone here know about the fight I am talking about? and if you do, where did this fight take place? and when?

If you know, then please let this inquiring mind know...... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Erich · #2 (**permalink**) June 2nd, 2001, 04:23 PM

Hey Carl !

Mr Kühl here....(laughing). I wanted to tell you that this is probably during the latter part of 44 or into 1945. From what I know, which isn't much at times, there were no Tiger II's at Kursk, just Tiger I's. The incident I am not too familiar with but sounds so characteristic of the last hectic months of the Russian hordes driving into Germany. Could of been a platoon of a heavy Pazer Abteilung of an Heer or Waffen SS unit. I do know that the Schwere SS Panzerabteilung 502 und 503 were always split up and never really formed into a large attacking or defending unit. Especially the 503 when they were broken up right from the start in January/February of 45 and placed in strategic locations in Pommerania/ Kustrin and then finally for the last battles of Berlin in April and May of 45. The 503rd's record speaks for itself. Along with what was left of the 11th SS Stug/Panzerjäger Abt. The combined unit destroyed something like 500 Russian tanks in the fierce fighting in the east during 1945, until every German tank was either abandoned or destroyed. Some top notch aces came out of the SS 503rd with high scores, 50 to 70 kills plus. Do you have access to Wolfgang Schneider's excellent Tigers in combat 2 ? What a great book. The individual SS and Grossdeutschland, and minor independent Abteilungs are mentioned with brief bio's. The 1st volume on the Heer units has been re-released, but I do not have it. I'll check the second volume out this weekend and see what I can find.
Also what was the end of your story.... ?
You had mentioned the German platoon took on one section of Russian T-34's and then another one attacked from a different position........outcome ?

E.

C.Evans · #3 (**permalink**) June 2nd, 2001, 10:46 PM

Dear Erich: thank you for thie info also. I feel so stupid for saying Tiger II's were at Kursk, I meant to say Tiger I's. I feel even dumber because in the last 2 or so months, I just read a book on Kursk

I've tried to order Schneiders book from Barnes and Nobles for over 6 months now, but they cannot seem to place my order or find out who has the book

There is an excellent dealer in England who has Hundreds of thousands of books-only on war, and the name escapes me

if I can find a note I scribbled with the stores name I will post it here. This place is THE place to get great hard to find books on war and for a surprisingly cheaper price than most places.

C.Evans · #4 (**permalink**) June 2nd, 2001, 10:48 PM

EUREKA!!! I just remembered the name of that bookstore in England, it is Helion.
www.helion.com

D'oh!!

Erich · #5 (**permalink**) June 2nd, 2001, 11:12 PM

Carl :

Before you see Helion and Co. and pay for overseas shipping, please check one of the best outfits I've ever dealt with.
Greg Tolle at www.tollehausbooks.com

I got my Tigers in combat 2 from him with a heck of a discount. Sturmgeschutze vor !, and several others for a great deal(s). His service is next to none. Excellent, that's all I can say. Also Jason at Angleray books is excellent as well with hard to get German titels.

E.

C.Evans · #6 (**permalink**) June 3rd, 2001, 12:26 AM

Thanks I just checked it out a bit. I do see what you mean. I gots to go since the library is about to close--I will check here again tomorrow..

Erich · #7 (**permalink**) June 3rd, 2001, 02:50 AM

A couple of things Carl......number eins, tollehaus books has volume 2 of Schneiders tome in stock at present with a savings of almost $20.00. How can you beat that ?

From several sources, namely Schneiders, but also accounts from Will Fey's Armour Battles of the Waffen SS which is a must have, and also Wilhelm Tieke's out of print book, Korps Steiner, covering Nordland and Nederland Divisions but also an over view of the heavy Panzer Abteilung. has some small but interesting maps and fotos.

19.04.45 5 Tigers, Obersturmführer Müller are in firing position on the heights near Grunow. Fire against the attacking enemy tanks is opened too early. When ammo runs scarce the # Tigers-Körner, kept in reserve have to join the action and destroy more than 70 tanks. Müller is killed ourside of his tank during a Stalin Organ barrage. In support of a counterattack on the height near Bollersdorf, Oberscharführer Körner spots a complete Soviet armored brigade which has assembled carelessly and is being resupplied. On the road to Strausberg a JS company is lined up and at the edge of Bollersdorf and more than 100 T-34/85's are crowded together. First, Körner knocks out the most forward tank and then the most rear JS. The Russian tanks are not able to traverse their barrels due to the thick trees. Within a few minutes the 3 Tiger II's wipe out the enemy tank brigade. Finally the remaining JS's are destroyed. Körner scores 39, Hauptscharführer Harrer scores 25 tanks. The Tigers then take on more ammo behind the defense area. The other tanks are relocated in the direction of Werneuchen(an important airfield).
In the late afternoon the 3 Tigers are attacked by some 30 T-34's. with the assistance of a fourth Tiger-Untersturmführer Schäfer, all the enemy tanks are put out of action. The Soviet infantry is wiped out by using delayed-fuse rounds. After sunset, the JS resume their advance and are knocked out with the aid of flares. Retreat to Straussberg.
During the day Körner, his 25th birthday, knocks out his 76th enemy tank !

Well Carl, maybe not the story you have heard but an intense one nonetheless. This was somewhat of a common occurance for this hard fought unit. Dribs and drabs taking on a much superior force and still being able to hold back the tide slowly until ammo, fuel would run out and total exhaustion would take over......as you probably could tell and are familiar with at least two of the tank aces.....Körner and Schäfer both receiving the Ritterkreuz during the April 45 battles.

E.

C.Evans · #8 (**permalink**) June 4th, 2001, 12:34 AM

Thanks Erich: This is another definate must have. At the rate I am going in looking for and spending money on books, I will most likely not make it back to Germany this year.

Hopefully though, hopefully I can get back, and this time, I want to have a video comera with me. My dag burn Nikon Advantix camera, is a good one, but is very limited in what I needed it for. I think I will go buy a nice $400.00 video camera--at least I can zoom in and the picture will not come out very grainy as it does with the Advantix. Many a good photo I took in Germany was totally wasted because of the foggy/grainy appearance-which also make is look as if you are a terrible photographer.

Again I apoligise for getting waaaaaaaayyyy off the subject.

Erich · #9 (**permalink**) June 4th, 2001, 12:39 AM

Carl I hae heard that volume 1 is even better for it's Army coverage, as it seems many Waffen SS personell destroyed their pics right before capture. but ones that are in here are quite good. I really bought it for the bio's of the units as i did Will Fey's book on Armor Battles of the W-SS, which has some great stories in it .....

E.

C.Evans · #10 (**permalink**) June 4th, 2001, 11:01 PM

You wanna know a horror story?

Someday I plan to buy all the volums of books that are in German (of course) which have photos of about 90% of all Knights Cross Recipients next to their bios. I think there are on average, two to a page. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

I know where to get most of them

the problemo is Batman, is that each volume is $73.00 not including the shipping

and they are all in Germany at Detlevs place.

These would be THE books to get on KC Recipients--except for Fellgiebles most recent up-to date book on them. I do not believe there are any photos in his book though.

Erich · #11 (**permalink**) June 5th, 2001, 01:15 AM

Carl :

Are you talking about the exhaustive volumes from Biblio Verlag ? If so you know you can order them right from their web-site. Here in the staes I think they are around $ 115.00
I do not own a copy oif any of the volumes yet.......but who knows ?

E.

C.Evans · #12 (**permalink**) June 5th, 2001, 09:27 PM

Dear Erich: Yep, I think those are the ones. Later today I will visit Detlevs site and check on them to make sure and will tell you what I find out.

I would have ordered two of them today but, I have two deals on Pre ww1 and ww1 medals, that I just cant pass by.

As a matter of fact, my first batch is coming from Detlevs, and the final two I should hear about in a day or so (I hope)

These coming from Detlevs are:
2 place medal bar with the 1914 Iron Cross 2nd class and the Lubeck Hanseatic Cross. These are parade mounted and are killer looking. By the way, this will be my firse ww1 EK 2nd.

Next from Detlev is:
Oldenburg Frederic-August Cross 2nd class (its the state of Oldeburgs version of the "Iron Cross 2nd class".

From Kai Bruggemann (Hopefully) will be:
Hamburg Hanseatic Cross with ribbon (actually all of mine will have the original ribbons)

Also from Kai: (Hopefully) A Kriegerverin 14th Inf Rgmt Hartmann/Nuremburg
as is on the bar: KB14JRH Karl Theo.

This medal is very similar to the 15tk Company, von Sachsen regimental badge that one of my U 181 vet/friends gave to me for my birthday. This was the only badge he had left that was his fathers. This was awarded in 1900. The 14th Inf Rgmt badge I think was awarded only between 1900 and 1902.

The Hamburg Hanseatic Cross and the Lubeck Hanseatic Cross, are ww1 German state bravery in combat-awards.

I am now into collecting Imperial stuff (thanks to my friend)

but

Erich · #13 (**permalink**) November 7th, 2003, 10:09 PM

Getting back to the old thread origins......Carl what is the wrod on this story of T-34's and Tiger 1's ? do you remember anything at all as to source

~E

BratwurstDimSum · #14 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2003, 09:51 AM

I think I have the battle you are referring to, but I'll have to wait till I get home to dig it out. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It was the last "organised" tank battle/defense on the shrinking eastern front in '45. From memory, a very large number of German Panzers for that time of the war (albiet from cobbled together groups) engaged an incoming Russian force on a road in which the soviets could not manouver effectively, causing massive casualties. A further attack from the left side of the Panzer group also failed due to a (rather obvious) smoke screen set up to obscure the attack.

Sorry for the sketchy details, I'll remedy that tonight!

- BDS

BratwurstDimSum · #15 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2003, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by C.Evans:
There were 75 T-34's engaged with a Platoon of Tiger II's. The Tiger II's destroyed 41 T-34's from that unit, before they were attacked by a Brigade of T-34's coming from another direction.

Here you go this excerpt was taken from "Panzer division the mailed fist" : Kenneth Macksey

Quote:

On 22nd March, 1945, The Russians had launched an attack along the Kustrin-Berlin Highway. In their path a scratch Panzer division of no name or number prepared for a last stand. It consisted of a reconnaissance platoon with five Panther tanks, a tank company with 22 Panthers and two further companies with 14 Tigers apiece - by comparison a formidable German tank concentration at that late stage in the war and, indeed, just about the only worthwhile mobile forces standing between the Russians and Berlin.

The forthcoming Russian attack, preceded by a 90 minute artillery barrage, followed by a massed infantry assault, had many tanks in attendance, but almost at once the German counterfire drove the Russian infantry to ground, leaving some 50 tanks, moving in two columns, to take up the lead and run head-on against two of the German tank companies where the covered the approaches on either side of the highway.

Picking their targets, the Tiger and Panther gunners hit and destroyed one attack after the other until both prongs melted away. By now the Russians were in some confusion and ripe for counterthrusts launched by the German against their southern flank. So far everything had gone in the German's favor, aided by the inept way in which the Russians advanced along the most obvious approaches against an unshaken opponent whose tank gunery dominate d the open landscape.

However, a fresh Russian effort to the north now took gratuitous advantage of the effects of their artillery fire which, by playing on a village where the Germans had kept their Command Post and reserve company, had thrown the reserve into confusion and dislocated control at a critical moment. Laying smoke to cover their assembly and assault, the Russians moved round the flank for the kill, but, in a way, the use of smoke also helped the Germans who managed to reassemble outside the shelled village in the nik of time and open fire on their assailants as they emerged, well silhouetted, from the midst of the smoke screen.

The sharp exchange of fire that followed ended, once more, entirely in the German favour and the Russians departed, leaving no less than 60 wrecks upon the field.

This battle at Kustrin may not have beeen aquite the last fought by a Panzer division, but it was certainly one of the last in which a tank force of suitably operational density could be assembled and used with the verve of old.

Good choice Mr Evans, one of my personally favourite battles. [img]smile.gif[/img]

C.Evans · #16 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2003, 12:02 AM

Sorry about that Erich/Bratwurst. I was talking about one of the many tank actions that took place during Kursk.

BW..anything Eastern Front is my favorite--especially Stalingrad, then Kursk and then Kharkov.