[img]smile.gif[/img]
Actually the MAS is a bit sturdier than the K98, and I have never had any problems with it.

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I dont know, I fired both at a rifle range here, but granted, the MAS might have had a bad barrel, but I dont recal that anything was wrong. On the otherhand, ive never had a problem even with a well used Mauser, they simple are VERY fine rifles. I was just never impressed with MAS rifles. The FFL, had their butts kicked because of this rifle.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Because the rifle was obselete, not because it was of poor manufacture. Designing a bolt action 5 shot rifle when the Garand had already entered service was a bad idea.

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im not expert,

but everyone speaks about the garand, the nagent, the lee enfield... what about other rifles ? could they not compare?

gewehr 43?
Japanese rifles?

I do not understand that germany, with all its innovations, could not produce a weapon with the same qualities as the garand. bolt action was not ideal, except maybe for saving ammo....

Could they not have copied the garand? everybody agrees that the garand was a superb weapon....and it cant be that hard to copy it

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*** We shall not retreat, nor shall we surrender. If we cannot stay here alive, we shall stay here dead***

I am not an expert either, just a bit of a nut. I think part of the reason the Germans never copied the Garand is that it would be a bit odd for the 'master race' to be copying an American rifle. I think the Gawher 43 (sp??) was a reasonable rifle, better than the 41 at any rate, though it tended to be a little 'temrpamental' and so was usualy only issued to experienced troops. Perhapse the fact that most armies were still wielding only bolt action rifles and that the German 'Rott' was organised around the MG with the rifles providing support made a semi automatic rifle seem un-necessary. Apart from that the Germans did develope a rifle that was better than the Garand, or at least more advanced. I speak of course of the MP43/MP44/STG44. The earliest prototype of this weapon was produced in 1942 and it could easily have become the standard rifle of the German Landser if the war had lasted a little longer. Why copy the Garand when you have an 'assault rifle' in development?

As for Japanese Rifles, here is an extract from 'www.wwiitech.net' about the 'Type 38 Arisaka Rifle' (it is a damn good site, well worth a visit, see if you can spot any familliar names there):

<<<The Type 38 possessed several characteristics that set it apart from the rifles of other advanced nations. For while most European rifles had a caliber of 7.5mm to 8mm, the Type 38 was a rather small 6.5mm caliber, which meant that it lacked power when compared to the larger European weapons. However, the small caliber was necessary due to the inability of Japanese industry to produce the high-grade steel needed for rifle barrels capable of sustaining the stress put upon them by larger caliber bullets. But even this reduction of caliber was not enough to sufficiently reduce the stress on the guns low-quality parts, so Arisaka also had to give the rifle a very long barrel, just over 79cm in fact. Because the Japanese usually went into battle with their bayonets attached, the total length of the weapon was around 165cm and was usually taller than the soldier carrying it!

These odd characteristics of the Type 38 did impart some advantages, though. First of all, due to the small bullet and long barrel, the Type 38 had virtually no recoil and very little muzzle flash. Secondly, the 6.5mm round tended to ‘tumble’ when it struck flesh, causing terrible wounds that were much more difficult to patch up than the cleaner wounds caused by higher power bullets. Thirdly, the Type 38 gave off a very odd report when fired, so it was very difficult to tell where the sound was coming from. This was a critical advantage in jungle fighting, when oftentimes the only way to detect an enemy was by the report of his guns.>>>

In short it was obsolete by 1939 when the type 99 was produced. This rifle was unique in that the rear sight had folding lead bars for us as an anti-aircraft weapon!!! How low did they expect pilots to bring their aircraft FFS??? It was basically the same as the Type 38 but re-barelled to 7.7mm calibre. It maintained the disadvantages of its predecessor

As for the MAS 36 I dont know what it is like to fire but it is a pretty weapon (looks arent everything, or anything in combat, but I like it) though it wasnt very common during the war and so it couldent have had much to do with the performance of french troops. Blame the Lebel for that.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

I agree and I definately are no gun expert either.

The Mas is almost as bad as the ww1 Frainch MG the Chauchat (spelling?)

The G-43-was an excellent rifle, the Japanese Ariska, was a piece of junk--which is why you can still get them for about $35.00 for a minty Ariska......Now the ones with the Chrysanthemum markings are more valuable, you might, just might be able to get one for the huge sum of maybe, um, $80.00-to-$90.00 dollars.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Actually in the last 10-12 years the value of Japanese equipment has risen quite a bit. Forsaken for so long these items are now pretty rare. When I was in High School I bought a Japanese helmet with liner for $10 which was the going rate. Now, you will have a hard time finding one under $100, the pre-war cherry style helmets are even more. You should be able to get $75-$100 for any functioning Arisaka, $200+ for an ununissued Chrysanthimum rifle. Non functioning rifles still sell for around $25-50 as wall hangers. Whats amazing is that Kenju pistols are making somewhat of a comeback, I have seen them more and more often at shows and stores. These dangerous little guns are going for well over $100 usually.

If the MAS was such a terrible rifle why did the Germans use large numbers of them? The Gewehr 242(f), as the MAS36 was called by the Germans was used by garrison units in Western Europe. These were issued to German soldat's and internal police units. The Germans continued MAS production throughout the war. An MAS with either NAZI eagle or Czech lion(post war) stamp are highly prized by collectors.

Also, the Wehrmacht wanted to place a semi-auto rifle into production before the war as they had seen both the Garand and AVS introduced in the US and USSR. Walther and Mauser both had prototypes of new self loading designs based on the K98, which the army was testing. Many examples of both the Walther and Mauser design saw action in Op Barbarossa for proof of concept trials. Both fired standard 7.92mm ammo. The Mauser proved completely unsuitable for combat due to reliability issues, thus the Walther design was standardized as the Gewehr 41(W)and entered operational service in late '41.
During this time Hitler himself intervened and declared that semi-auto rifles would encourage landser to waste precious ammo, the bolt action forcing the soldat to properly aim and conserve ammo. So he banned them.
The Wehrmacht, for the most part, ignored this order and kept the G41 in front line service. The soldats actually using the G41's werent fans of it, for the most part. The system of operation it used, the Bang system which used gasses trapped at the muzzle to drive the reloading cycle, was very prone failure, thus jamming was a constant issue. Also, the G41 was extremely heavy making it a bear to pack around and uncomfortable to use. As it was difficult to manufacture, by summer '42 only a few thousand G41's had been issued, nearly every one of them to the Eastern Front. It was there in the winter of '41/'42 the Germans first were able to lay hands on an example of the Russian AVS and saw first hand the gas operated system the Soviets used. The Soviet AVS tapped gases from the barrel, not all the way from the muzzle, and was also far less complex. The Germans quickly realized they could easily adapt this system to the G41, and the G43, a G41 with a copied Soviet reloading mechanism was born. The first G43's left the factory in January '43, the last G41 was built in March(they were phased out as quickly as possible). The G43 also incorporated a detachable 10 rnd magazine. The G43 was well loved and proved such a fine weapon it was produced as fast as possible, a simplified version for faster production being introduced late in '43,the Karabiner 43. The G43 and K43 served in larger numbers than the StG44 and continued to be produced until the end of the war.
The StG44 was a better weapon for close combat conditions, but the G43 stayed in front line service as a sniper weapon with several Eastern Bloc countries well into the sixties. The full size 8mm provided plenty of power, but also kicked like a mule when you went full on Rock and Roll [img]smile.gif[/img] , causing very poor accuracy for sustained fire.

[ 07 March 2002: Message edited by: talleyrand ]</p>

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Not to disagree with you too tooooooo badly but, just when and where did the Germans use these masses of MAS rifles? my feeble inquiring mind needs to know.

Granted--captured equipment, wes handed out to 2nd and 3rd line troops I.E. such as Transportation troops, Volksturm, and Russian Hiwis, and stomache Battalions but as a last resort, when there was nothing else available. These would only have been issued to poor classed troops or to factory guards.

Now granted, the Germans DID issue out Krag rifles to German troops who were depot and camp guards in the beginning. These were replaced with German and Czech weapons. Now, the ONLY Frainch weapon I know of that was produced by the German throughout the war was a pistol. These pistols are of a small calibre and today can just barely fetch $100.00 for a good one with Waffennampt markings. I forget the proper name,of this handgun, but I saw a dealer with 3 of them at a gunshow about 6-8 months ago.

This dealer saw that I was carrying my 43' AC made P-38, and wanted to see if I wanted to trade him. Just to "play along" I said what are you offering? (He had about 20 pistols on his table, and none of them were of any interest to me) most of his guns were cheapo "Saturday night specials" and crap like that.

So he peruses over all the details on my P-38, and said I could pick any two pistols out on his table. I said, two pistols and HOW much cash are you going to pay me?

He said--well I wasnt actually going to give cash if I didnt have to, so how much cash are you looking for? I said I will formulate my answer to you when I pick the pistols out.

I picked the two best pistols out of all he had,(neither of them were the Frainch pistols) and said I want $350.00 cash. (I knew he wouldnt go for that amount, but that WAS the fairest price I could give.

He goes, you picked out my two best pistols and want $350.00 cash? I said "yup". Then he goes "first of all, you want these two pistols" but these two I aint tradin'" Second of all, you want $350.00 in cash? I can offer $100.00 only".

I said, YOUR the one who stopped me as I walked by and YOUR the one who wanted to trade--not me. Next I said " I have no interest in ANY of the weapons on YOUR table, as they are all junk, and then, YOU wanted me to pick ANY two pistols and a cash amount, which I did, and then you say I cant take the two pistols I want, in a trade I really had no interest in. Gimme a break.

He then said, well-your being foolish in not taking the Frainch pistols. ((I in fact knew about these and knew they werent collectable((at least in this area)) and I had never had an interest in those pistols to begin with.

I said, OK, im being foolish and will someday in the next 350 years or so, that I will also regret not trading for two pistols--let alone two Frainch pistols, that I had 0% interest in.

Everyone "in the know" and in town, knows I have the best P-38 here, and they all want it. The same goes for my Mauser Sniper varient with the Ansteckmagazin.

The only way I would have parted with this P-38, would be to get all 20 of his pistols, just so I could sell them to all the dealers I know--more than getting my money back--and then only once that happened, that I had a buyback option.

As you can tell, I hate Frainch guns--except for their Imperial Muskets.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

From June-Sept 1940 the Germans collected and sent to Germany more than 5 million French rifles
The 7.5mm cartridge was the only cartridge being mass produced by the French during the spring of '40, having rechambered many of their Lebel's to 7.5mm as the MAS was not being produced fast enough. So Lebels still chambered for 8mm were mostly scrapped. Special French rifles like MAS's with paratrooper stocks, Lebel carbines, and others were usually plundered and would occasionally find themselves on the battlefield. The MAS, which ammo was still being produced for in late summer, was immediately placed in German service as the rapidly expanding Wehrmacht lacked enough rifles to go around. Garrison, training, parade, police, and other units first traded K98's to the frontline troops for older G98's. Later the G98's had to be swapped out for MAS, Steyr, Krag, Lebel, even SMLE's as shortages got worse. Many Eastern volunteers on the Atlatic wall in France and the Low countries were armed with the MAS. The MAS was mainly used inside France and the Low countries, as most weapons were used in their homelands.
Did you know that the SS issued thousands of M1911 Colt .45 as sidearms?

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I fogot about the Lebel rifles, these were better than the MAS, and were issued but again, not to frontline or really usable troops.

For the figures of millions of rifles, that also has to include the Germans confiscation of all personal firearms (which they did) including Muskets, Flintlocks etc.

Yep, im aware the Waffen SS had .45s, but im not aware of the numbers issued.

To date, in all my years of collecting-ive never seen photographis evidence, that the Germans used any MAS rifles, but have seen a few photos with them using .50 cal and .30 cal, Garands, and .45's. I have also seen photo and written evidence of captured aircraft and armor being used and repainted in German colors--or some still in their original colors when captured.

One of the main reasons that captured weaponry was not used unless nothing else was available, was because of the many variations of ammo and the amounts available for usage. Plus was too much of a headache to sort all this out when you busy trying to stay alive.

The Frainch Forign Legion units that did fight on the German side, had Lebels, MAS and I think Mitras? I have seen a few photos of the FFLs with those weapons as well as some with the Mausers.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

The logistics problem was why the Lebel and MAS were mainly used only in France and the Low Countries as the plants producing ammo, ammo dumps, and spares were close at hand. The MAS was produced during the war sporadicly, when the Germans were especially hard up for rifles and several MAS production facilities were sitting idle.
The WWII MAS-36 is a different animal than the MAS-44 that fought in IndoChina in the '40's. It was longer and heavier, with a complicated safety(the 36 doesnt have safety), and had a detachable 10 rnd magazine. The MAS-44's great length and weight was despised in the jungle. In 1949 the French produced the MAS-49, a semi-auto version of the MAS-44. The 49 was lightened that with the addition of the self loading mechanism, the 49 was the same weight as the 44. The safety was improved. But the French soldiers still complained about the MAS-49's length. This led to the MAS-56 with a 15 rnd mag, shortened barrel, and better gas mechanism. This weapon proved to be rugged, powerful, and accurate. It served on 5 continents and until 1992 when it was finally removed from service. It is still used as a sniper rifle though.
Many can still be found in former French colonies in the hand of revolutionary's, bandits, and the like.
I have a book on the Norwegian .45's, but I cant find it. IIRC, around 10,000 were issued to the SS, many stayed in Scandinavia though.

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Tally, thanks for the great info--specially on the .45s. Now I have a new project to research. I know I saw a magazine articla about the Nord .45s, but I think that was about 15 years ago, and I no longer have those early issues of Military History and ww2 magazines--thanks to loaning them out to a vet who turned out to be an A**hole.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Carl, the Ross was indeed a terible combat rifle, but it had nothing to do with the Enfield. It was a 5 shot strait pull bolt action rifle produced in Canada to equipe our troops in WW I. In a nutshell it was basically thrown away after the first battle of Ypres in 1915, or was it the second one, anyway it was the battle in which the Germans introduced Mustard Gas. he Canadians held by the way, no gas masks, rifle that was more dangerous to you then to the enemy and all. I cant even remember if they had machineguns at the time.

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Ain't no rocket scientists in the firehall

Hello Billy, and thanks for the new info. I totally agree with you but also one small item. Ross did produce a varient of the Lee-Enfield--I dont know how many but these too were all pieces of junk.

If I can find my book The catalog of military small arms (1965) edition, I will look for all info and photos on the Ross and their run on Enfields and show you what I mean. My book is in storage so it will take sometime before I can produce any proof.

Many thanks again--Carl. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Guten Tag Kamraden! I beleive that the Kar 98 was the best rifle of WW2. I have shot both the M1 and the K98 they both shoot great and both are nice but when it comes down to it i think the K98 is better. Maybe its the German blood in me that sides with them or maybe is the look of the gun. Who knows. Well thats my 2 cents
Member of the 2nd PZ div.
Jason "Axel" DeRocher

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A Member of the 2nd Panzer Division
Jason "Axel" DeRocher

DeRoche?
Alsatian?

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

Hey talleyrand what about my last name?
Member of the 2nd Panzer Div.
Jason "Axel" DeRocher

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A Member of the 2nd Panzer Division
Jason "Axel" DeRocher

Jasom, I have to agree with you that the Mauser is a very good rifle. Its only drawbacks were a 5 round capacity magazine, and no way to have a larger supply of ammo redily available to fire without having to reload after 5 rounds fired(as in a detachable 20 or 30 round magazine) Only a few had a 20-25 round magazine--such as the one I have in my collection. It was deemed un-constructive for general usage because you could not change magazines as they are fixed, you could not lay on the ground and fire it accurately nor get close enough to laying down because of the fixed extended magazine.

Now there were ww1 mausers that had magazines holding I think 10 rounds, but these were not fixed and it wasnt too long in changing magazines.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

My grandfather says that the Mauser is an excellent rifle, he has got one and I have got the luck of shooting it. It is wonderful! But he also says that the "bloody Garand" was a little bit better for its fire speed (semiautomathic). He saw several of his men being killed by those damned rifles. He accepts that amerikan light guns were very good. But from not authomathic rifles the Mauser is the winner! Since the first world war it showed how good it was. The number manufactured reinforces that: nearly 11.000.000, am I right?

It was the main weapon used by the average soldier in the infantry. It was part of the equipment which my grandfather can remember: the 5 pounds steel helmet, the Mauser, 60 cartriges, 2 hand granades, a bayonet, a canteen, an antigas mask, a ( how do you say Schaufel in English? ), a backpack and a personal stuff pack.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Schaufel=Shovel

The G98 was probably the best small arm developed in the 19th century(the only other contender is the Winchester lever action series). It has influenced almost every long gun developed since. But by 1936 the then K98's time had passed. The Garand, AVS, and SMLE had all surpassed the venerable 98. Had a G43 type rifle been developed before WWII German soldaten would have been much harder to defeat.

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.