Jagdpanther vs Churchills

sommecourt · #1 (**permalink**) July 7th, 2002, 12:21 PM

I am currently researching the action of 3rd (Tank) Battalion Scots Guards on 30th July 1944 during the advance from Caumont, in preparation for a look at the battlefield there next month.

I believe this was the first occasion British (Allied?) tank units came up against the Jagdpanther and 3rd Scots Guards lost 11 Churchills from their fire.

Officer of the battalion visited the battlefield on 28th August 1944 and found several wrecks of Jagdpanthers. None had been knocked out by their own fire, but several had damaged driving units, forcing the crews to abandon them.

One officer noted on finding one of the Jagdpanthers:

" It was a stupendous equipment. A very long 88mm gun stuck out from a very heavily armoured sloping front plate. Long sloping sides extended for three-quarters of the length of the vehicle. The gun appeared to have about 20 degrees of traverse. On the top were two exit hatches for the crew. All round was a length of wire on which camouflage could be hung - camouflage which would not interfere with the rotation of the turret, as on a tank."

You can almost sense the envy!

Does anyone have a combat report from the German side, or know where I could get one? Any photos of these particular vehicles?

Martin Bull · #2 (**permalink**) July 7th, 2002, 03:06 PM

Hello Sommecourt
Afraid I can't help much on this one - none of my sources seem to refer to this incident.

One clue - Lefevre in 'Panzers In Normandy Then & Now' states that only one German unit in Normandy was equipped with the Jagdpanther - this being Panzerjager Abteilung 654.

Over to our Panzer forces experten !

( PS - One can almost sense my feeling of envy at your visiting the area next month !! )

sommecourt · #3 (**permalink**) July 7th, 2002, 04:17 PM

Thanks Martin - I forgot to look in 'Panzers in Normandy'! But I would be interested if anyone has access to this units war diary?

I hope to have a digital camera by the time I go and will be posting some photos from the trip on my website.

Doubt if I'll find any Jagdpanthers in the mist, though...

Stevin · #4 (**permalink**) July 7th, 2002, 11:03 PM

Besides Kurt Meyer's I have started in Michael reynolds Steel Inferno, but besides having him compare the two tanks, I haven't been so far as to the engagement you are researching. Don't know if it is there.

Well, we might run into eachother in Normandy Sommecourt. A friend and I are planning a trip to the area in august, perhaps september...I am getting a little bit quizy (sp?) thinking about what to see first and what to skip for our first visit. ALl I know I do want to visit St Mere Eglise and Omaha and some cemeteries....And then some...

Friedrich · #5 (**permalink**) July 8th, 2002, 04:51 PM

Hallo!

I actually do not know much about those units but I can tell you that the Churchill was not a good tank at all and that the Jagdpanther was the best tank killer of the war. According to my grandfather:

"When we see the new Jagdpanther we instantly knew about its potential, we coud see a very thick armour, the lovely 88 and a good structure for a tank killer. We tested it at once and it was fast and monouvrable, all we needed. Let's see how it performs in combat"

1944, Major Gottfried von Hammerstein und Hartmann (I will tell you the exact date, location and unit later).

Erich · #6 (**permalink**) July 8th, 2002, 05:23 PM

I've got the action reports somewhere in my library. I believe it was a complete slaughter by three Jagdpanthers, one of them being knocked out. Give me a bit after work today and I'll have a go look see.....

E

Erich · #7 (**permalink**) July 8th, 2002, 07:38 PM

Schwere Panzerjäger Abt. 654 wa suppose to have 42 Jagdpanthers but only 2./Kompanie was equipped with 12 or so during the Normandy campaign.
the action you requested was on July 30, 1944 :

15 th Scots and the 6th Guards tank brigade broke through south of Caumontl' Evente, where the front was weakly held by the 326 Infantrie Div., and made a ten kilometre drive to secure Point 309 contolling N175 road. A squadron of Churchills was detailed to cover the left flank from the upper slope of Point 226. All remained quiet for a while but suddenly tanks started to exlode in flames, one after another. 2 Jagdpanthers pulled out of cover onto the crest covered by a third from where, within seconds they had destroyed some more Churchills. The crews had actually broken cover without realising that three tank squadrons were facing them and the sight of the two other Churchill squadrons soon prompted them to move back, receiving some hits from the British armor before disappearing beyond the crest. The whole action had lasted less than two minutes yet it had cost the Guards 11 Churchills and reduced one of the squadrons to four vehicles. Two of the Jagdpanthers were later found abandoned on the reverse slope with some track damage but the third escaped unscathed............this from pages 120-121 of Panzers in Normandy, then and now by Eric Lefevre.
I have another account that I am seraching for.........where are you sucka !!

E

Friedrich · #8 (**permalink**) July 9th, 2002, 02:43 AM

Vielen Dank, Erich!

You always so precise and accurate! That's why we all luv you!

Martin Bull · #9 (**permalink**) July 9th, 2002, 05:01 PM

Hello Sommecourt

Took a trip to the IWM today to look at their Jagdpanther. By coincidence, it is displayed almost directly opposite a Churchill Mk VII.
The poor old Churchill ! Looking at both AFVs together in this way is like comparing a Gloster Gladiator to a Me262 - they look like weapons from different eras of warfare.
( Incidentally, the IWM Jagdpanther was knocked out by a Cromwell - albeit from the flank at 50 yards ! ).

Now, the book you NEED TO SEE is the 'Combat History of Jagdpanzer Abteilung 654' by Munch ( published by JJ Federowicz ). This monumental book has everything you could wish to know, including a mammoth picture gallery ( no pictures of this action, though ). It's in stock at Ian Allan but, and this is a very big BUT

,
it's eighty pounds !!

[ 09 July 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

sommecourt · #10 (**permalink**) July 12th, 2002, 11:38 AM

Been away for a few days, so thanks for that guys. If anyone turns up the unit diary, I'd be interested.

I shall eventually be posting the Scots Guards account on my website.

Thanks for all your help.