I guess the only way a churchill could hope to scratch a tiger would be to get right up behind it kelly's heroes stylee . Call in the tiffies and watch it brew up, that would be my plan.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Further info on the driver periscope idea- even if a Tiger Is driver periscope (fahrerfernrohre) was knocked out, I don't think it would have had much effect on the tank. Reason being, the Fahrerfernrohre was discontinued in January 1943 on Tiger production. I confirmed this with some of Restayn's Tiger photos. There is a perfect shot in Tiger I on the Western front on page 45 that show the weld spots where the holes for the periscope used to appear.

So methinks that idea on how to knock out a Tiger with a Churchhill would be... unsuccessful!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

I was thinking about this one a bit more, and it is actually somehwhat valid. Not in the sense of knocking out the periscope itself... and putting a shot "through" the periscope is really the wrong way to put it.
However, two things do have to be considered. For one thing, either the presence of the periscope or the welds that replaced it could lead to the armor right in that area being slightly weaker than the rest of the armor. This would only be a very minor difference- the designers of the tank certainly anticipated protecting the driver from frontal impacts, and hence I'm sure any weakness in this area would be absolutley minimal. And it must be considered how much the frontal armor of the Tiger overmatched the Churchill's gun to begin with- correct me if I'm wrong, but the Churchill's best armament (anti-tank anyway) was a 75mm not-so-long-barreled gun?
The other thing to consider- the Driver position is right behind this area. And any penetration in this area would probably immediately cause catastrophic damage. So this would be an area on the Tiger that IF a good, solid hit was made, it would probably have a better chance of causing major damage than say, a hit to the center front of the hull.

2 more cents...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

No, the best anti-tank gun that was ever fitted to the Churchill was in fact, the 6pdr (57mm) fitted to the Churchill Mk III, which could defeat 83mm of armour with AP shot at 500 yards. The 75mm gun fitted to later Churchill's could only manage approx 70mm at 500 yards. The reason that the main gun of the Churchill was changed was due to the fact that the HE for the 6 pdr was quite poor,. and seeing that the main role of the Churchill was infantry support...
What makes this even more sadder is that just before D-day a new round was issued for the 6 pdr, the APDS (sabot) round which gave the 6 pdr A/T gun the capability to defeat 131mm of armour at 500 yards, and even 117mm at a 1000 yards

[ 03. June 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

[later]

Sorry, redcoat... the above post looked rather odd the first time I checked it. Hence the confusion!



[ 04. June 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Also from the little info I have of the N Africa Campaign, in the first meeting between Churchill and Tiger tanks, the Churchill came off better, due to the fact that it was at very close range and the Churchills were Mk III's

[ 03. June 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Nice info on the Churchill.

Guess that little ole' 6 pounder was a tad bit more effective than I had thought!!

I'll see what some of my sources (Schneider on the way!! ) have to say about the early N.Africa engagements. But- the scenario you describe certainly would not suprise me. Range made a huge difference in Tiger engagements. Most weapons could damage the Tigers- they just needed to be in VERY close. But if a Churchill managed to close in on a Tiger, I'd give it a pretty decent chance of knocking the Tiger out.

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.