This idea came from some Panzerfaust comments...

What do you gents think was the most effective anti-tank method of ww2?
To clarify, I see four main methods-
Hand weapons- panzerfaust, panzerschreck, bazoooka, etc.
Static weapons- towed anti-tank guns, minefields, obstacles, etc.
Improvised vehicles- Marder series, Nashorn, etc.
Purpose-built vehicles- Jagdpanther, Hetzer, etc.

I'd be interested to get some comments on this...

Personally, I'd have to vote for the hand-held weapons. As much as I like many of the german tank destroyers, the "economics" of the hand-held weapons wins out. Generally weapons like the panzerfaust required very few resources to manufacture. And not only were these weapons generally effective, but they were also easy to use. I'd say that the panzerfaust was one of the most significant weapons of ww2 because of these reasons.

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Wonder where he got this idea from ??

Very good question. In terms of cost-effectiveness, surely it must be the Panzerfaust ?
The thing looks as though it cost about half-a-crown to make ; by the Volkswagen factory I believe ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I've got some cine film(s) of some W-SS truppen intermingled with Stug III's. Nearly every 4th chap has a Panzerschreck hangin on their shoulders, and every soldier besides these has a Panzerfaust at the ready. This being shown sometime in March 45 on the Ost front. What unit I have no clue, but it seems in 45 on the Ost front that the Panzerfaust was the standard issue side arm

E

I would have to say that it would depend on the role, defensive or offensive. Ideally, I would say a combination of mobile with static. The ideal is to have a plan where tanks could be knocked out from a distance. This way, the attack/defenses could be broken before it has a chance to pose problems.

As for the number of panzerschrecks and panzerfausts, this does not mean that it was the preferred method. Towards the end of the war, armour production was being hampered by bombings and definitely fuel shortage. Using the hand held weapons was cost effective way to knock out tanks. The disadvantage to this was you could not knock them out unless they already broke through the lines and more than likely (in the east) get behind them to knock them out. Not very smart way to fight a battle. I would stick with the PAKs and StuGs.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Ah but what a morale booster the Panzerfaust was ! A little brief story. When Ost Preussia was first invaded by the Soviets in the fall of 44 and tremendous battle took place in the forests and meadows outside of Ebenrode. Good friend Unteroffizier Helmuth Reichert was in charge of a small band of men as waffenmeister in Regiment 43 of the 1st Infantry Division. He and his men travelled by samll 1-ton lorries to the front from the rear of the lines issuing anti tank grenades and dozens of Panzerfausts and a Panzerschreck or two. Panzerfausts were always stocked in the rucks in case of T-34's breaking through the thin lines. Well this is what happened and the Lorry he was driving got bogged down in a muddy lane on his way back to pick up more anti-tank wepaons. Well the worst could of happened and several T-34's broke through, helmth detachement hidden by some oversized trees took care of the T-34's by giving them hits from the flank knocking all the T-34's out. Upon their return which was quite casual one of the anti-tank squads of the anti-tank abteilung came in to the area left by Helmuth and his me, filling the area with Pak 40's. Ebenrode claimed some 400 Soviet tanks in several days of fighting.

E

The best individual weapon was in my opinion the jagdpanther. The best overall was panzerfaust. I have to agree that it definitely was cost effective and could prove very potent, like the account from Ost Prussia.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

aswell as considering wether you are in defence or offence, the enviroment should also be taken into accunt. In close country, suhc as dense woods and urban enviroments, the hand held weapons have to be the favorite. In urban, not only can you get close to your target, you can also get above him. This allows you to fire into his weakest point. Bit difficlt to pull an AT gun upstairs.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

you guys are correct, though I do want to point out that the Panzerfaust 100 was becoming standard issue to most truppen by 1945. If you didn't have a rifle you had a Panzerfaust in your hands. Of course you might not fair to well against a massed Soviet infantry assault. And we wonder why there were so many Soviet tanks destroyed.....!
For weheeled vehicles it is hard to say what might be the best German sp or jagpanzer but we have a good selection. To hand held it would be the Panzerfaust and maybe second the Pnanzerschreck. Even with a killing range of around 100 yards and could take out any Panzer within it's range it was a heavy weapon and a two man crew was most needed, even with one to spot and carry the ammo. Both weapons systems could be of course used for the attack or the defence. Hand held anti-tank mines such as the Panzerwurfmine and the Magnetic AT mine Hafthohlladung 3kg were both used on the Ost front till the end of the war. hard for me to imagine T-34's and JS II's making frontal attacks at high speed and trying to defend against them with these hand held things......arg ! By the way my friend and his unit had the Panzerfaust 100 at their sides during the Ost front battles from Ost Preussia to Hela and even on the ship Sachsenwald upon their departure to Copenhagen. Only when they were within 50 miles of Denmark did they dump the Panzerfausts over into the sea.....

E

Wow! Great stuff, gents! Thanks for the comments...
I'll have to post some of my ideas later-if you guys haven't said them already! Very little time now (damn you, Texas!).
(oops- sorry PzJgr... I work in educational (textbook) publishing. Might that clarify my dislike of Texas at the moment?!?!)

[ 31 July 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Hey send some rain over here ASAP !!! I've got more Panzerknacker accounts if interested.....

E

Hallo, gentlemen!

As Bish pointed out, for urban warfare, the Panzerfaust is the perfect weapon, offensively or deffensively.

But for a battle on open-field, I think that anything can match some 88 PAKs. Because they can knock enemy armour out a kilometre away! The bad thing is that they are not very mobile. So, I think that a tank killer is even far more effective... So, I will go for the Jagdpanther.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Of course, we shold not forget one of he most efective, and cheapest, urban AT weapons. The good old Molotov Cocktail.

But all this talk about AT weapons gives me the creeps

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

No offense taken....I know exactly what you are talking about.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Good point Bish. That would determine the type of weapon to use.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Friedrich, I'd certainly agree on the efefctiveness of the 88. That also makes a good argument for the improvised vehicles- especially the Nashorn which mounted the 88 L/71. One hell of a gun, and given mobility, this must have been an impressive tank killer. And of course there's the elephant... but then, I guess as a weakness we would have to consider the necessity of supporting infantry when discussing some of the vehicles.

And PzJgr, let me correct myself- I don't dislike Texas, you'all just work HELL with my schedule every now and then!!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

In most cases in late 44-45 the ground did not have the prepatory work needed to set up a defense. Heavy paks were at a premium and it didn't matter what type of anti-tank weapon you had. You had no chocie except for what was in your hands and hopefully your anti-tank abteilung was close by to stop any Soviet tanks that may have penetrated your thin lines.
The Nashorn had a wonderful gun but it's own armor protection lacked as it was easily knocked out.......

E

Good points, all!

Shoulldn't we take on account the Soviet dogs discussed in other thread?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

More good points!
True, Erich, the Nashorn had very thin armor. There is a Nashorn at Aberdeen, and in fact the best way to view the interior is to look through the hole made in the left armor! One can clearly see how thin everything except the chassis armor is. A common proble with the open-topped vehicles. I'd say it probably would have been a worthwhile trade-off in this case, since the 88L71 was such a good gun.

Friedrich, we could certainly discuss the dog mines- if anyone actually would think they were an effective tactic!
(what possessed those russians???)

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

I know, I know...

But the "Nashorn" was not a very good self-propelled gun because of its thin armour. The "Elephant" was much better in that way, because it had a very, very thick armour. The ironny is that the "Elephant" was designed as a tank killer...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

As far as hand held methods go, there are ohers that are often ignored. In particular, i'm thinking of the magnetic AT mine, can't think of the name. And also the use of land mines. Not in the nomal sense, of laying a minefield. But the methods use by a single soldiers with a single land mine. Any thoughts.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

The Nashorn had many strokes against it....basically it was mobile artillery and some anti-tank work. The profile was way too high and it had to be concealed by dense trees or placed close or in a dmaged building. The 8.8cm was superb but it belonged on a lower silhouetted vehicle.
The anti tank mines were the first items used until smaller but more lethal devices came into useage. From several grenades taped or roped together to glass smoke grenades, Molotov cocktails, T-mine 42 and 43(Teller Mines), 3kg charges on a small platform and even the useage of oversized grenades for the flare pistols.
Still like the Panzerwurfmine 1 (L) the best I think with canvas fins and the big almost panzerfaust-type head, the item almost cracks me up [img]tongue.gif[/img] as it looks closely resembling a lawn throwing dart with a blunt, overs-sized head; but the item worked to great effect but only produced in limited numbers.......Panzerschreck and Panzerfaust 100 still rule the field !

E

Achtung, warnung !web-seite

www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm

this is about the only site covering the hand held German weapons......very good site I think

E