CrazyD88 mentioned a backward firing archer-was this effective or another design that is consigned to the historical blunders section?

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

thanks panzergrenidiere!!

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Heinz Knokë, one of the top pilots fighting the allied bombers in the west, had a very interesting idea he tried several times , that is dropping a bomb over the planes as they were in a tight group. If I recall it right he tried 500-1000 kg bombs and at one attempt as the bomb exploded some 3-4 B17´s fell down at the same time. Otherwise the result was lame but a very interesting idea anyway.
This is described in his book .

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Dasreich, I'm not too sure- I don't have any actual data on the performance of the Archer. It certianly did seem like a good idea though. Tank destroyers usually fought form ambushes- A rear-facing gun would certainly make it easier for the Archer to attack and then drive away to change location.
I think the main problem with the vehice was interior layout. The gun facing backwards caused problems with placing the commander, gunner and loader withion the vehicle, and giving them enough room.

neat idea though!

Another one as well from the wierd category... I don't remember the name, but I know the germans built a long-range gun that worked off multiple firing chambers...
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/28...n/v-3/v-3.html
That's all I could find at the moment...

Of course, my favorites remain the panzerfaust and the Elephant...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Crazy

Archer was really seen as a stopgap. To quickly mount a 17pdr on an available and reliable chassis. One thing it did do was prevent Royal artillery gunners suddenly thinking they were tank crews.

Achilles was a much better design for us, but the RTR often got it into their heads to behave like tanks, not mobile AT guns...

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Certainly, Jumbo- most Tank Destroyers were stopgap, with a few exceptions. I just figured the Archer deserved mention for it's uniqueness!

an honorable mention, shall we say!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Some stuff on the Archer...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Some stuff on the archer...

"Design of the 17pdr as a high velocity anti-tank weapon comparable in hitting power to the Germaqn 88mm gun began in the fall of 1941. It was approved for production in mid 1942 and consideration was given to fitting it in tanks. Consideration was also given to the Bishop, but this was ruled out due to the vehicles high silhouette. The Crusader was ruled out as being too small and underpowered to take the mounting which left the Valentine as the only available alternative existing in quantity. The Ministry of Supply asked Vickers to design an entirely new SPG vehicle based on the Valentine. Work started in July 1942 and the pilot was ready for trials in March 1943. Named Archer, the SP was a low, open topped vehicle with a radical twist - the gun had a limited traverse and always pointed to the rear. The first production model was completed in March 1944 and used in North West Europe. What was at first considered to be only a temporary fix turned into a great success. A total of 665 of these hard hitting and trusty tanks were built out of an original order of 800 and remained in British inventory well into the 1950s."

"Britain's most promising anti-tank gun was the excellent 17 pdr., and in 1942 a chassis for a self-propelled version was needed. At that time, the Valentine was the only suitable candidate available. Simply installing the gun in a new turret proved unfeasible due to the gun's length, so modification of the chassis was undertaken. The result was the Archer, basically an open-topped Valentine with the 17 pdr. mounted pointing to the rear. An unconventional arrangement, but the only solution to the design challenge. This arrangement gave the vehicle a compact and low silhouette. Eventually the Archer proved to be an effective SP gun. The 17 pdr. was later mounted in the Sherman Firefly and - in modified form - Comet battle tanks.

The first of 665 production models were completed in 1944, and the Archer served in Europe from October 44 to war's end. It remained in British service until the 50s, and some were supplied to the Egyptian Army.

Technical Specifications
17 pdr. SPG - Archer
Engine: GM six cylinder diesel, 165 hp
Maximum Speed: 32 km/h
Average Range: 225 km
Length: 6.679 m
Width: 2.755 m
Height: 2.247 m
Weight: 39,960 lb
Armour: 8 mm to 60 mm
Armament: 17 pounder OQF with 39 Rounds
Secondary armament: .303 cal Bren MG
Gun Elevation: +15 degrees
Gun Depression: -7 degrees
Gun Traverse: 22.5 degrees
Crew: Commander, Driver, Gunner, Loader

Historical Employment
British Army, 1944-50
Egyptian Army "

Seems from what I have read it performed quite well... Think I will look into this one more closely... [img]smile.gif[/img]

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

What was the caliber of the 17 pounders? I hate British guns because of that. I don't care about the weight of the shell, but the caliber. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Off the top of my head I think a 17pdr is about... 77mm.

But I may well be wrong! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Good stuff on the ARcher, RedBaron. That pretty much matches up with the small amounts I have read. The 17pounder was certainly a good gun- I've read many sources that compare it favorably to the german 88. Also, the rear-mounted gun strikes me as being a good idea- makes a quick get-away much easier...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

77 mm ? Not bad.

And was the 25-pounders 75mm, wasn't it?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Actually, I believe the 25pdr guns were 88mm. Could be wrong though.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

The atomic bomb

'nuff said....

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17pdr also had a good round and high velocity, as important as calibre.

Lets not forget the Challenger, another attempt to mount a 17pdr on a modified chassis, and taken to France by 7th Armoured Division in 1944.

Friedrich: stop gibbing about poundage! Its much more romantic than millimetres...they always sound so calculating.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Crazy,

That multi-barrelled gun you were talking about was call the Hochdruckpumpe, or V3, also known to the allies as the Busy Lizzie, or the Millipede.

The original design was for a 15cm smooth bore gun with up to 24 firing chambers positioned along the barrel in a herring bone pattern, with a projected range of 180 miles.

Problem was, the firing chambers kept exploding, and the shells turned out to be very unstable (naturally, it was a smooth bore ! for something like that you need rifling for stability)

Didn't matter, Hitler liked the idea so much he went ahead and ordered it built anyway. They settled on a site near Calais, at Mimoyecques, and it was supposed to be for a 50 barrel gun emplacement, aimed at London. Fortunately, the allies over ran the area well before it could be finished, otherwise it would have been capable of firing a 550lb projectile about 155 miles right at London.

However, the story doesn't stop there. Apparently during the Battle of the Bulge, 2 short barrelled versions were mounted on railway wagons and the germans managed to fire a few rounds, before they had to be destroyed in the face of the advancing allies.

I believe that the site at Mimoyecques is now open to the public.

That's the one, Sniper. Another strange one from the german weapons designers. I wonder- had they been able to get the gun operational, and maybe accomplish some real tests, I wonder if the gun would have actually worked well? I guess it sounds like a reasonable idea, but the gun would need to be machined so well to take the stress. Possible?

Interesting as well- now that you mention it, I think I may have read somewhere about the smaller versions. I wonder if there is any info on those few shots fired during the Bulge?

Jumbo, from what I've read the challenger was not too successful-correct? High silouette, thin armor. It did have a good gun, but I've read that only about 200 were built, and they were never really liked much...

I also read a bit more about the 17pounder last night. Seems that the capability of the gun and round was easily comparable to even the 88/L71. Only major problem I've read of was inaccuracy- apparently the gun was not accurate to the ranges that some of the german guns could achieve.

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Well, thanks for your help... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

17 pounders were 76 mm... And 25 pounders... 75 mm.... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

During the early years of war the finns were very fond of the "Suomi" submachine gun. Check the site. It was a bit heavy, but aren´t they all. I have shot with it in the army myself ( old guns tested and undusted ) and I liked it. There´s not so much powder in the bullets so that the gun won´t jump high as you shoot, and you can shoot rather steadily bursts of 2-3 shots and is awesome in the close battle situation as small movements are only needed to change your sight. A great gun at least in the 1939-1941 area,and as the finnish guys went to germany to join the waffen ss, their requuest was to take this gun with them, and Himmler accepted!

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

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I've just measured a 25-pr shellcase here - it's about 88 or 89 mm ( or maybe it's stretched a bit with old age ? )

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SOunds about right. Did they ever design a decent anti-tank round for the 25pdr?

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

I don't know...lets ask Friedrich... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

From 1942 the 25-pounder used a 20-lb Armour-Piercing shot with propellant charge increased from 'three' to 'Super'. As this was purely 'shot', not a 'shell', I would assume that effectiveness was limited.

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Martin

But it did give it the versatility lacking in any other gun of it's type. Britain was well served by it's gun designers. The much-maligned 2pdr was a cracking little weapon for it's calibre, but changing over to the 6pdr in 1940-41 was probably not a good time to dislocate production! Hence we suffered a bit. However we certainly did better than the USA in this field. I'd go with the 17pdr rather than the 3" any day.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War