Now you see, Mustang? You CANNOT argue about aeroplanes with Herr Braun... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Well.....You could, but it would not be the smart thing to do. Not by a long shot!

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Geezo guys ! I don't know everything about a/c and that is the truth. This is a great avenue because it makes me hunt through files I haven't looked at for some time.

vielen dank

Horrido !

E

He doesn't only know everything about planes, but is also modest! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Congratulations on the award and rank Friedrich. I guess you're not a soldier anymore! Cool Avatar Erich!

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MUSTANGS FOREVER
FACTS ARE JUST THERE TO ARGUE YOUR OPINIONS

Many thanks, Mustang! Keep going that way and you'll catch me up!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

He's modest too!

__________________
MUSTANGS FOREVER
FACTS ARE JUST THERE TO ARGUE YOUR OPINIONS

General 109 characteristics:

Excellent climb rate
Good rudder response
Excellent high altitude performance
Above average low speed handling
Good negative-G handling
Below Average visibility from the cockpit
Not particularly "new pilot friendly"
Moderate to low ammunition supply
Mediocre ground attack capability
Poor Bomber Interceptor
Mediocre durability
Other features vary depending on the 109. For example, the 109E had excellent firepower for its time period, but is the only major 109 version( not counting "upgunned" field modifications such as the 109G/R6) that has to be mindful of gun convergence factors. The most produced 109's carried all their firepower in the nose, but had moderate firepower lethality. The armament of one cannon and two machine guns of varying calibre and cability was fairly standard. It should be stressed that this armament was deemed quite adequate against the fighters and medium bombers being fielded by the Allies in the early war years. Only with the advent of the large 4-engine bombers and heavily armored attack planes was the 109's armament configuration put into question. Like the other changes in the 109 to deal with improved enemy capabilities, the attempts to add it its firepower caused compromises eleswhere, which decreased rather than increased the aircrafts overall effectiveness. The 109's armed with the more powerful 30mm cannon did so at the cost of a much reduced ammunition load.
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Some tricks....

The 109's are good at negative G maneuvers. The key is to do these without reding out, or just barely reding out and recovering very quickly. The key to the negative G maneuvers is to first make the enemy lose sight, then get "out of plane"; that is out of his flight path and imminent gun solution. After the enemy has lost the "saddle up" position the 109 can either attempt to extend or, even reenage favorably, especially if the enemy has lost sight for a significant amount of time.

Hartmanns Escape: (An escape maneuver practiced by Erich Hartmann, the top scoring Ace of all time.) Throw the stick into one "corner" (45 degrees forward) and give a lot of rudder in that direction. The plane will slide down and to the side. A very hard move to match. An attack will have to roll about 150 degrees and then begin a normal positive G pull on the stick in order to pursue that move.

Corrollary to Hartmanns Escape: A very shape negative-G pushover pushing the plane below the enemies view. Then a sharp pull-up involving maximimum rudder deflection. If done correctly this will leave the 109 flying at about 90 degrees off its original flightpath, and the pursuer will have lost the 109 below his cowling, so will have to reaquire visually. By this time the 109 can try to extend or even turn the tables.

Aggressive Corrollary to the Hartmann Escape: A short Negative G pushover transitioning to a sliding barrel roll forcing an attacker into an overshoot. If performed perfectly this maneuver will leave the 109 close on the enemies six after exiting the barrel roll.

And lots more on Bf 109...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletch...tructions.html

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Nobody has mentioned the power egg !!! The Me-163 was a better intercepter than the Me-262 and if the war had gone longer they could have worked on increasing it's operational time in the air. In a Me-163 you did not have to worry about allied escorts shooting you down, all you had to worry about is not making a hard landing and blowing up.
Really the German fighter that got the Germans as much progress as they got early in the war was the 109. If they could have widdened the landing gear a bit, then it would have been even better. My prefrence is the TA-152 because it looks like a fighter should. But overall the pilot makes the difference between winning and losing.

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I guess the Me 163´s stats scare to put it no 1. It was a great plane, except that problems with fuel made it almost as dangerous to the German pilots as it was to the allied pilots in the air.
I am convinced that with time they would have overcome the problems and with gun systems like SG 500 Jagdfaust they would have blown the B-17´s out of the sky...check the sites below for this.


"Production Me 163Bs were not ready for operational use until July 1944. The Luftwaffe planned to have small units of Komets dispersed to intercept Allied bomber formations, but only 279 Me 163Bs were delivered by the end of the war. The sole operational Komet group, JG 400, scored 9 kills while losing 14 of its own aircraft."

http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163.htm

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Chief test pilot Rudy Opitz:

“The 163 was originally envisioned as an interceptor for high flying reconnaisance aircraft—at 30,000 feet say. But it was instead used to attack large formations of bombers. "

“The highly experienced fighter pilots could fly and attack in a 45-degree climb. They were quite safe because the turrets couldn’t easily follow them. These were the pilots who survived."

"When the 163 was designed, Germany had air superiority at the lower altitudes. That was not the case anymore in ’44. There were P-51s and P-38s, and their pilots learned very fast that as the 163s came up, you left them alone, but on the way down the 163s had a short flying time, and they could be targeted. But the 163, now empty of fuel, had a low wing loading and could dive much closer to the ground before pulling out than could the Allied fighters."

"Several hundred 163Bs were built,
but only 91 were operational as of December 31, 1944, and only 16 kills were attributed to 163s during the War. Note, however, that while under power or in a fast glide, the 163 could fly circles around any other fighter of its time."

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.walker6/komet/
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Production of the Me 163B-1a ended in Febuary 1945 after almost 400 of all variants had been built. Projected developments included the Me 163C and Me 163D; the former was a modification of the Me 163B with an auxiliary cruising chamber to improve endurance, a new center section and a more streamlined fuselage with a blister canopy. Three Me 163C-1a aircraft were built, but only one was flown. The Me 163D was futher refined and had retractable tricycle landing gear. One prototype was built and, since Junkers had been tasked with development and series production of this model, it was for a while known as the Ju 248 before reverting it to a Messerschmitt designation as the Me 263. It did not enter production, the prototype being captured by the Russians who fitted it with new straight wings and modified tail surfaces, flying it in 1946 as the I-270(ZH), but it was soon abandoned.

Mention should be made of a licence-built version of the Me 163B, the Mitsubishi Ki-200 (J8M1), which was to be built in Japan with Mitsubishi and Yokosuta building the HWK 509A motor. Loss of the pattern aircraft on a ship en route to Japan left the Japanese with only an instruction manual, and it is to their credit that they began design of an airframe based on the Me 163B. The first aircraft flew in July 1945 but was destroyed when the motor failed. Several others were built but the programme was terminated by the end of the war.

http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/me-163.htm
[img]smile.gif[/img]

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Thanks for the information and links on the Me-163. I had forgotton all about the Japanese version until you mentioned it. I read about it many years ago. That would have been rough on the B-29's

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On Me-262...

Despite Hitler's orders only one Me-262 was fitted with bomb racks and equipped to be a "blitz" bomber. The rest were produced as fighter / interceptors. On May 23, 1944 Hitler learned that the Me-262 was being manufactured only as a fighter. In a rage he removed Erhard Milch from head of procurement for the Luftwaffe and ordered that all existing Me 262 jets be converted to blitz bombers.

The Jumo jet engines had a life-time of only ten hours mainly due to the use of steel instead of rare metals (such as chromium) which would have stood up better to the extremely high temperatures of the turbo-jet but were very scare. The jet engines themselves were always in short supply.

only 100 - 300 actually flew operations and fought against Allied aircraft they downed far more than 100 enemy planes.

Jet fighter deliveries to Luftwaffe:

101 November '44
124 December '44
160 January '45
280 Febuary '45

Total deliveries of Me-262 aircraft reached 1,433 by VE day

First flight of aircraft (airframe testing only since no jet engines were ready yet) the plane was fitted with a piston engine.

R4M unguided rockets - 4 kg rockets were tested at Rechlin in 1944. First used in combat by the Geschwader on 18 March 1945. 12 of the rockets fit under each wing on launch rails. The weapon proved devastating against Allied bombers. 54 Me 262A-1a jets being equipped with a dozen of the rockets and 6 more carrying a full load of 24. 13 kills were credited to JG 7 in this action for the loss of five jets and three pilots.

Adolf Galland and Jagdverband 44

Squadron of Experts"

Began operations begining of April 1945 about 1 month before Germany's defeat.

Unit made up of: one lieutenant-general, two colonels, one lieutenant-colonel, three majors, five captains, eight lieutenants and about the same number of second lietenants.

At least ten of the squadrons 50 pilots wore the Knight's Cross total combined air victories of pilots = over 1,000

Based at Riem, near Munich. During its brief life the unit scored 55 confirmed kills.

JV44 "Squadron of Experts"

Pilot Kills

Bär, Heinz Oberstlt 220
Barkhorn, Gerhard Major 301
Bob, Hans-Ekkehard Major 59
Galland, Adolf Gernerallt 104
Grüberg, Hans Oberlt 82
Herget, Wilhelm Major 72
Hohagen, Erich Major 55
Kaiser, Herbert Ofw 68
Krupinski, Walter Hauptmann 197
Lützow, Günther Oberstlt 108
Neuman, Klaus Leutnant 37
Nielinger, Rudolf Ofw 20
Sachsenberg, Karl, Heinz Leutnant 104
Schnell, Karl-Heinz Major 72
Schuhmacher, Leo Ofw 23
Steinhoff, Johannes Oberst 176
Stigler, Franz Oberlt 28

http://www.danshistory.com/ww2/jetrock.shtml#natter

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Kai :

Dan's history should be viewed not entirely as fact.......

KG 3, 51 and 54 used the jet in the bombing role.

JG 7 alone scored more than 450 victories, a mix of Allied and Soviet fighters and bombers.
The correct amount of III./JG 7 jets that flew on March 18, 1945 is about 30 a/c armed with 4 3cm kanon and 24 rockets not 12. As I have pointed out earlier III./JG 7 was also having 6/7 jets equipped with 48 R4M's on an experimental basis in April of 45.
The first night fighter unit and only one equipped with the single and two seat jet was Kommando Welter/10./NJG 11.

E