Good point. The Flying Tigers were/are great guys and should be respected as the first special forces in the United States of America. Even if their "scores" were a little off they were still great pilots. They should be respected with upmost respect!!!

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"So who is the liar, the Chinese Government which only paid on confirmed kills, the author what's his name, or the Flying Tigers?"

no-body is lying, the figure is just incorrect.

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I don't think that the Flying Tigers would lie because the are/were great guys. I don't think that the Chinese Government lie. Who would want to pay extra money anyway? I don't think that the Japs lied because as was said earlier, "friendly losses are usually close to 100% right." So yeah, nobody was lying, the figures were just wrong.

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Gary--you may not be my secretary but--YOU have the computer to post these things--remember? I HAVE to use the library computers.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I have to believe Redcoat's argument here. I'd like to find any pilots who did not over-claim victories at some time during the war, and I find it hard to believe that the Chinese Nationalist Army were able to confirm the Tiger's kills in entirety, after all they spent most of their time retreating and were not known for administrative efficiency. Taking the defender's losses is a far more accurate form of measurement: after all if a guy gets shot down a government will want to stop paying him for a start!

Once you cut through the romanatcism nationalism and other crap around the Flying Tigers what you get to is a group of semi-mercenaries who provided the Chinese Nationalists with a small but fairly efficient group of aircraft and pilots.

If it was worth it, well I'd like to ask if any lessons learned were incorporated in US aircraft design, tactics or doctrine based on the experience in China? If they did, like the Germans did in Spain, then it probably was - testing your kit in a real war is a pretty good idea if you learn from it. Pointless if you don't.

I wonder if Chennaults men ever came across any of Hitler's Wehrmacht-advisors out in China who were also testing kit there?

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Redcoat: Great post! That's what I really like about this forum: well-researched, interesting material, compellingly written.
And on the other hand, there's Mott5: faithful disciple of the John Wayne School of American History. *YAWN*
The Flying Tigers were a band of mercenary pilots who made no military impact on the war whatsoever. The numbers speak for themselves: they accomplished ZIPPO in the large scheme of theings. The Japanese were never going to conquer China in any case: Roosevelt knew that. The Tigers were simply used to further provoke the Japanese into attacking the United States. It was a political ploy. All this crap about stemming the Japqanese advance is pure rubbish and romanticism. All these guys wanted to do was fly planes and get paid. They were adventure seekers who couldn't tell you the difference between Hirohito and a hero sandwich.
And you can turn down the Lone Star stuff, too...

Hmmmmmm, I wonder if I should check with friends and family of noted local ace Johnnie Hamsphire about the recent comments made. They should get a great kick out of this. He is credited with 18 victories and was KIA over China.
Every army airforce during WW2 made some bogus claims. It's a fact and no-one can get around it. You can ask any air firce vet and they will tell you nothing is confirmed without a wingman or someone in your squadron/fighter gorup to confirm the action and shoot down. And also for the German's confirmation from the ground. This was not that hard to do obviously from late 43 through early 45 as the battles raged far and above the Reich.

I still say that the Tigers were worth it. They were the first American special forces. Over-claiming is just another aspect of war. They still shot down a lot of Japs. We probably did learn a lot from them. The P-51 probably wouldn't have come into existence if the P-40 Flying Tigers hadn't flown in China either. The pilots probably were just adventure seekers who wanted to get paid for flying an airplane. Hey, I wouldn't mind getting paid for flying an airplane. These guys shot down other planes while they were flying though. They didn't lose a lot of planes themselves either.

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Mustang
"The P-51 probably wouldn't have come into existence if the P-40 Flying Tigers hadn't flown in China either."

The Flying Tigers operated from Dec 1941 until July 1942.

The first prototype of the Mustang flew in Oct 1940, the first production aircraft arrived in Britain during Nov 1941, first operational sortie 27 July 1942
I don`t see the connection

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Erich

I don't post stuff to mollycoddle Vet's families. If we let family history overwhelm factual evidence we'd be putting historiography back over a hundred years. If facts are uncomfortable for people then I'm sorry, but thats it.

I was asked by a family to do some research about their "family hero", an Austrian officer killed during a cavalry charge in 1877.

3 days in Vienna later I had a fireman who died in his bed. He had been a Korporal in the infantry and was a sharpshooter, but never saw action.

An extreme case, and they weren't happy (to the extent that they initially refused to pay me) but I learned my lesson.

Jumbo

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Jumbo :

I understand your sentiments but I asked a couple of people that new Johnnie quite well including an ex-girlfriend of his that is one of my customers. They have heard all of this before and it is all old news to them.....60 years plus which is a long time ago. No one has any of his personal records so they have been archived and are with family in other parts of the states or in the national archiv's. I guess my point is if you are considering to find the truth about air or ground aces, be easy. don't point the finger in their faces and tell them straight up that they are lying. Get their story first then go do some research.......sometime you get ripped and sometimes you get a golden egg.

E

Roosevelt signed the Executive Order authorizing the formation of the American Volunteer Group on 15 April, 1941.

Let me get this straight. The Flying Tigers lied and padded their totals but the Japanese were always truthful in the amount of aircraft they lost? Jumbo, just because a Jap pilot was shot down doesnt mean he died, the Japanese government was not going to run out and stop payment on his last check to save money. The aircraft loss total refers to planes shot down not pilots killed.

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Yep, ripped the shark-mouthes off the britts. We originally had skulls on p-40s on the nose...I think that was pre-war? I'm sure someone has seen the shots I"m talking about.

Also, something I've always respected about the tigers. From what I understand, the armor and other weight made them very slow....especially compaired to the light weight fighters the japanese had. The only way they could go on the offensive, from what I remember, was by diving.

You know, the tigers didn't get any kind of vet. status or benefits until, what, the 80s? Sorry I'm so vauge on this, but I've gotta go study. Just thought it might bring up some more talk.

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Skulls on P-40's......

85th fighter squadron, 80th fighter group, 10th air force.

E

Skulls on P-40,s. Cool. Didn't know that. Cool. Yes Redcoat the first Mustang came in 1942. The first Mustang with the designation P-51 came in 1943.

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Steve

Pretty much, yes. I do believe the Japanese totals over the Flying Tigers. In the same that most people accept this method for BoB assessment. There is nothing new or radical in this idea. Perhaps your sense of disbelief is that you find it hard to accept that the Japs may have been telling the truth? Of course not every pilot died, but an aircraft was lost at the very least. This would have to be logged and recorded for the unit commander to get replacements. If he didn't eventually he'd run out of planes. How else is he to explain their disappearance?

It's a matter of thinking how military bureaucracies work and what you need to make them work.

Then there's the issue of confirmed kills. Supposedly the Koumintang only paid out on confirms. Who provides that confirmation? Your mates in the squadron perhaps? Could there have been a you-scratch-my-back approach to this, especially where there were bounties involved? It may not even have been deliberate, rather a less careful logging approach and pilots very keen to have kills.

It wouldn't be the first time. My favourite example is from 1793-94 when Wurmser's Freicorps were offered a bounty for the head of every Frenchman. Soon dozens of headless peasant bodies began surfacing around the countryside. Like Ankh Morpork and the Rat farms...

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Ok, that part about headless peasants was just plain sick. I'd believe the Japs loss total as well. Not every plane lost would mean a pilot lost however. There probalby was a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours thing going on...

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What happened to my beautiful picture?!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Another source of confirmations would be the locals.

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Night Rider Temple wrote
I would like to avoid the personal home attacks, but I will fire back since you shot first. It's a Texas thing. Heritage and pride seperate the Scots from the Brits, the Bavarians from the Germans, and Texas from the US. I would prefer to discuss statements, remarks and other postings without getting personal. We should all be able to agree or disagree without playing the personal attack of someones home. However, if that is the playground rules, let's ride.

I accept the written documented evidence of the period in regard to the scores of the Flying Tigers. Someone may suggest something else, another may imply a third opinion, but the record still stands regardless of an author who talked to two Japs. Your opinion is just that, your opinion. Whether or not the Flying Tigers made an impact on the war is(again) your opinion. I know they made a big difference. Other allied nations agree. FDR sent them over not to provoke a war but to stop the Japanesse agression. I get a little tired of the fairy tale of the US pulling strings to get the Japaness to attack Pearl. Again, our allied partners gave the Flying Tigers countless awards. I guess the decorations handed out by the British, Chinese, and French to the various members is all worthless and meaningless to you. Not so, they had an unbelievable record which caused every nation to take notice. In addition to the Tigers success in the air they also proved to be a valuable assent in recon and troop support. The Flying Tigers were an awesome unit never to be equaled again. They were at the right place at the right time in history. Sure a few were adventure seekers, they were young men in their 20's! Who doesn't seek adventure when they were young, but they were also patriots. I guess you choose to attack them because over a third were from Texas. You don't like Texans. I guess you have something against Shriners, because many of them were 3rd degree freemasons. I guess you hate sandwiches(up north they are called Hero's down South they are called "Po-boys") and you think all pilots are uneducated. I guess you have a problem with coming from a small state which is about the size of a dozen ranches here. I don't know the reason for your enjoyment in putting down the Tigers. I guess *YAWN* it makes you feel better. I still think you are very disrespectful to these Men of Honor. By the way, you can tone down the yankee Kennedy attitude as well.

History is history and regardless of your opinion, which you are entitled to have, the Flying Tigers will always be at the top of the list in helping the allies win the Pacific Theatre.

John Wayne was also decorated by our nation for his service to the war effort. (Several times)

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As George W. would say, "don't mess with Texas." Texas is pretty cool though. The Houston Astros are a nice team, and a steak down there is about the size of four of my hands!!!

The Flying Tigers not only made a difference in the second world war, but in future wars as well.

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Well said, Mustang. Short, sweet and right to the point. If I had the authority I'd give you a ride on Air Force One. Do you like the new paint job?
YEEEEEeeeeeeee HAWWWWWW!

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