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| Weapons in WWII Discussion about the weapons and war machines created during World War Two |
October 12th, 2002, 07:58 PM
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"Nice site!!! I can't get enough of that picture! So know we know that the Flying Tigers detroyed more thatn 200 enemy planes while losing about 16 of their own right? Are we in agreement now? I mean, atleast that's what the president said."
NO. While the Flying Tiger were brave and skilled, the figure they shoot down was nearer to 120, and no they did not lie or "pad" their figures, its just that in air-combat over-claiming is normal
As for what your president says, I`ll give my reply a miss 
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if in doubt....Panic!!!!
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October 12th, 2002, 08:56 PM
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But we all think that the Flying Tigers were worth right?
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October 14th, 2002, 10:04 AM
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Mustang "But we all think that the Flying Tigers were worth it right?
Yes, they were [img]smile.gif[/img]
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if in doubt....Panic!!!!
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October 14th, 2002, 04:22 PM
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Most definitely
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Greg
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October 14th, 2002, 10:52 PM
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Well that makes three of us......
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October 14th, 2002, 11:06 PM
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Expert
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Thanks for posting the site Gary--nice one.
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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
 
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October 15th, 2002, 02:47 AM
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Hey Carl! Do you think that the Flying Tigers were worth it? It would be nice to know your opinion seeing how you're a Field Marshal, and have a Medal of Honor, and have the most posts..... 
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October 15th, 2002, 05:40 AM
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Miserable Cretin
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Location: Marblehead, Massachusetts
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Mott:
Nothing personal against Texans.
I am sorry for the offence and apologize for any personal remarks, either stated or implied.
My comments generally concern the actions of the US government and how they often unnecessarily expose soldiers and civilians to danger. I'm sure the Tigers were a fine bunch of guys, and I do not want to take away from their accomplishments.
It's just that history has somewhat inflated these accomplishments.
My point is that their contribution was more political than military.
In 1940, Roosevelt was trying to find the best means of provoking the Japanese into a conflict. This strategy was later confirmed by discovery of The McCollum Memo.
On October 7, 1940, Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum of the Office of Naval Intelligence submitted a memo to Navy Captains Walter Anderson and Dudley Knox. Captains Anderson and Knox were two of President Roosevelt's most trusted military advisors. It consists of an 8-step plan to get Japan to attack the United States. Roosevelt implemented all of these suggestions.
The following information provided by : Arthur Hutchinson and Jeremy Bishop
Emphasis is mine.
Quote:
The McCollum Memo was the plan set in action during the summer of 1940 to get the United States into World War 2. The memo read as follows:
A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore.
B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia).
C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang Kai-shek.
D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore.
E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient.
F. Keep the main strength of the US Fleet, now in the Pacific, in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands.
G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil.
H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire (Stinnett 8)
Basically, the McCollum plan points at an economic war against the Japanese Empire, and that is precisely how Franklin Roosevelt wanted it to seem to the Japanese. In this way FDR knew he could get involved in the war if he stifled the supplies of the Japanese Empire. Roosevelt cut down on many exports to Japan and "on July 26th, aviation fuel and the highest quality of iron and steel scrap were brought under licensing control and shipments subsequently stopped (to Japan) (Neumann 266)." Thus, Japan was without one of its biggest oil and scrap metal suppliers.
Points A and B of the McCollum plan both called for the extra militarizing of allied naval bases in the Pacific. In the case of Japanese invasion, the extra bases could be used for reinforcements and would provide more of a forward position for retaliation if the Japanese failed to overtake the positions. After successful negotiations with both the Dutch and British nations, American units were soon transferring materials and supplies to the naval bases. Unfortunately this plan did not anger the Japanese as much as FDR had hoped and only gave the Japanese more resources to use after their invasion of said naval bases (Stinnett 173).
Point C of the McCollum initiative addresses military policy with the Japanese-Sino war against China. It was apparent to the United States the Japanese would most likely obtain victory against the Chinese defenders since the nation was having a civil dispute and both sides were bleeding each other dry. Even though a temporary cease-fire between the Chinese opposing governments was called by Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong, Chinese forces continued to suffer massive morale losses from such devastating Japanese victories, causing disarray and a seemingly never ending retreat.. Furthermore the Chinese were in desperate need of military aid, hence point C of the McCollum plan. Enacting point C of the McCollum memorandum, Roosevelt gave aid to the government of China claiming to be giving "our material resources to the opponents of force" (Neumann 257). Giving aid to the Chinese government at this time clearly upset the Japanese and hurt diplomatic relations between the Japanese Empire and the United States. Japanese ambassadors delivered many messages to FDR ordering him to stop giving aid to the enemies of Japan, but FDR paid no heed to their requests (Nestor 476).
Action D of the McCollum plan was carried out in more ways than one. Not only did FDR send cruisers to the orient, but he also sent three "pop-up cruises" late at night that drove deep into Japanese territorial waters violating International Laws and putting the lives of over 5,000 men at risk. These "pop-up cruises" did not go unnoticed by the Japanese either, as many Japanese naval officers believed the vessels to be of American origin. However the ships were ordered to immediately turn tail upon the first sign of a challenge. Several messages were delivered to the Japanese ambassadors in the United States about the events, but none were answered honestly by Roosevelt. The Japanese were not the only people upset at such actions. Admiral James O. Richard did not approve of Action D at all, and thought it careless of the president to put the fleet "in harm’s way," risking the lives of so many men (Stinnett 10).
The McCollum plan was a success. The eight-point plan set just over a year before the Japanese sent their fleet to attack Pearl Harbor, thus creating the first "overt act" of war against the United States.
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Thoughtfully submitted,
The Knight
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October 15th, 2002, 01:47 PM
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Knight
Interesting outline, but not really conclusive. The existence of plan Red in the late 20's did not mean that the US was expecting to go to war against the British Empire. Staffs are expected to come up with this sort of thing all the time.
Mott. Tone down the hyperbole. Handing out gongs is not always sign of military effectiveness, it can be a sign of political support. The Tigers were also wonderful propaganda for a faltering allied cause, and like much allied propaganda it has become WW2 folklore. As for the idea that they will never be equalled I think you are allowing your Lone Star enthusiasm to overwhelm you (Hood all over again perhaps?).
the role of US pilots in China. and in Europe is fascinating. Guys like Red Tobin and Andy Mamedoff who signed up for the Finns, escaped from France and ened up in the RAF are real Boys Own stories. It's not a matter of taking anything away from these guys. It's like the British claim that they never discussed peace with Germany: we can either continue to believe this Churchillian rhetoric, or we can try to find the truth. The Tigers are the same. Did they effect USAAF tactics, aircraft design or doctrine? Yes or No? I can't believe that so few aircraft made any significant impact in China.
Jumbo
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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War
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October 15th, 2002, 02:24 PM
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Miserable Cretin
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Jumbo:
What's inconclusive? I demonstrated how each of the eight points was accomplished by FDR.
I'm assuming that you're trying to say that the US was not trying to aggravate the Japanese.
Were these actions meant to improve relations between the two countries?? Come on...
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October 15th, 2002, 02:53 PM
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Knight
Because I would bet that there are other plans with different concepts buried in US archives.
I'm not really convinced that FDR wanted a war with Japan.
But then again maybe leaders try to take woefully unprepared countries into war, deliberatley sacrifice 5000 men whilst at the same time provoking another country by selling arms to it's ememies and attacking it's submarines. Call me a bluff old traditionalist...
Jumbo
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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War
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October 15th, 2002, 03:52 PM
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Miserable Cretin
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Huh????
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October 15th, 2002, 07:04 PM
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Expert
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Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
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Mustang--they were DEFINATELY worth it. We got guys like "Tex" Hill and Gregory "Pappy" Boyington who were in the Flying Tigers. "Tex" Hill was CO of the 2nd F.T. Sq. "The Panda Bears", and I think Boyington was in the 1st F.T. Sq. and I thi9nk they were called "The Adams and the Eves", I forget what the other squadron was called.
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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
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October 15th, 2002, 09:43 PM
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That makes 4. Including Carl! Maybe even 5 or 6 if Jumbo and the Knight would stop their bickering.....
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October 15th, 2002, 11:54 PM
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Miserable Cretin
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Flying Tigers kick butt!!!
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October 16th, 2002, 01:01 AM
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I'll take that as a yes. That's 5....
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October 16th, 2002, 01:20 AM
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Thats a yes for me also.
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October 16th, 2002, 01:41 AM
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Make that 6......!
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October 16th, 2002, 04:58 AM
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GröFaZ  |
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Count me in too. I think they provided a direct military impact as well as a powerful propaganda tool.
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October 16th, 2002, 07:00 AM
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WW2F Veteran
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Netherlands
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Well, I feel that anyone who put his life on the line like that kicks butt, so put me down too...
When I was 15 or so, I struck up a small correspondance with a flying tiger....At the time I didn't realise what that meant: I was just corresponding with a vet from the pacific. Have to look for his letters...he included a flyer for a Flying Tiger's book that had just come out...
Anyway, put me down....
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October 16th, 2002, 09:40 PM
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That's 8. By the way, I just set up a poll since this was kind of turning into one!
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October 18th, 2002, 01:24 AM
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Ace
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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars
"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun
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October 18th, 2002, 02:54 AM
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HEY! I resent that!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Greg
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October 18th, 2002, 03:10 AM
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Come now Friedrich!, you know better than to talk behind THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE WORLD'S back!  [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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October 18th, 2002, 09:03 PM
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Expert
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Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
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Me theeenks our friend von south of der border ist a bit  on our politics.
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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
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