Tanks with most influence in the war... - Page 2

Mustang · #26 (**permalink**) December 17th, 2002, 03:47 AM

I'm going to have to go with the NAZI Panther and Tiger. Why? Because they were both a REALLY big shock to the allies and they had LOTS of armor and BIG guns. The allies had to change the way the Sherman was used to beat them. The Allies also needed 4 or 5 Shermans to take down 1 or 2 Tigers or Panthers. The only reason the Tigers and Panthers didn't win the war for Germany is that there just weren't enough of them. This was the case for many German weapons. The Sherman in quantity beats the Tiger or Panther in quality. If a Sherman was to take on a Tiger or Panther one on one the Sherman would lose big time! The allies found this out the hard way. Thus, the Tiger and Panther changed the way the Sherman was used! This is what I like to call influence! This is why I think the NAZI Panther and Tiger are the most influencial tanks of the war.

[ 16. December 2002, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Mustang ]

JOL · #27 (**permalink**) December 30th, 2002, 05:28 PM

Nope.....T-34's all the way, consider this, no T-34, then no tiger. Guerdian considered the PZ IV tank enough for him, the chassis was quite adaptable, power plant was adequate.

So to argue Tigers and Panthers were the most influential, when the reality was they were influenced by the appearance of the T-34...hmmm, maybe I'm missing the point of this thread. I've read there was alot of thought of just making a straight copy of the T-34 by the Germans.

Better yes, but only answers to the T-34, they were definite advancements, and if built in bigger quantities could definetly have "Influenced" the war more.

Of course I'm one of the guys who thinks the King Tiger was a total waste of resources!

CrazyD · #28 (**permalink**) December 30th, 2002, 06:50 PM

Good points, JOL, but I don't think the T-34/Tiger question is so simple- the germans were planning a large, heavy "breakthrough" tank as early as 1938. And on another level, if the T-34 was so influential on the Tiger, the german designers probably would have instituted sloped armor to save some of the Tiger's weight.

I think you can look at each tank individually for this question. The question itself is rather broad- most influential how? and when?- so we can look at many different factors.
The T-34 was undoubtedly one of the most influential tanks... it's ruggedness, it's simplicity...
But the Tiger was certainly influential in that it forced more or less everyone to up-gun and up-armor all their tanks. Each of the allies (was forced to) come up wiht a specific tank or TK in response to the Tiger- russian SU-152 among others, British "Firefly", American Pershing...

And if we look at "reputation" during the war- in that case, I'd say that the Tiger would easily be the most influential tank.

Kai-Petri · #29 (**permalink**) December 30th, 2002, 08:25 PM

Actually no T-34 no Panther....

Some kinda Tiger was on its way like Crazy says, but Panther was a rip-off, only the German engineers were so proud they would not copy it 1:1 and made their own adjustments...

http://www.geocities.com/desertfox18...velopment.html

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Bish OBE · #30 (**permalink**) December 30th, 2002, 09:12 PM

Alsi Kai the Germans had a problem with material. The Russian engine could not be re-produced exactly because of a lack of certain metals. Also, i believe i am correct in thinking the T-34 had 4 crew. The Germans had already setteled on a crew of 5. So to copy the T-34 exactly would, in my view, have been a mistake.

But, the Tiger woud still have been built in more or less the form we saw it, while the Pz V would have been something different, as both had been underway since 1937.

Erich · #31 (**permalink**) December 30th, 2002, 10:09 PM

A crew of 4 was tough. Imagine trying to be the gunner as well as the tank commander at the same time. Typical of Soviet tank crews.

German optics were far superior as well as the gun platform as the 8.8 long rod could take anyting out due to it's high velocity and high impact power of it's ammo.

E ........ no doubt the T-34 made a huge impact on the way the German techs thought of future tank designs.

JOL · #32 (**permalink**) December 30th, 2002, 10:21 PM

Damn my lazy bones....should know better than to try and sneak the Tiger was the T-34 answer, when it was the Panther.

My excuse? recent move and all books are still boxed in the garage....Ok?....Forgiven....guys?

But if we are talking pyschological influence, I'm a tiger guy, If I had to pick a tank to crawl into in WW II it would definetly be the Tiger. But I honestly think the T-34 was a war-winner, and to a lesser extent the Sherman....that's influence. Like I said before if the Tiger was built in the same quantities as the above, we would have what-ifs like "If the Americans had developed the Pershings earlier, do you think they would have won?".

Thanks for the trouble free research gents! With knowledge like this around why would I ever go through the trouble of pulling those books out again!

Kai-Petri · #33 (**permalink**) December 31st, 2002, 09:24 AM

Yes, Bish,

as you mentioned it I remebered that the Germans did have problems with some engine parts as well.I´ll try to catch the problem..

I think the Germans thought of the first T-34 as a "blind" tank as well when it did not have the commander´s cupole ( or something like that ).Later on the Russians quickly started correcting this. And yet with these problems ( no radio, 4 crew men ) they could give the Germans a good beating...

TA152 · #34 (**permalink**) December 31st, 2002, 11:58 AM

Someone may have posted this site before on the forum but I will but it in just in case you missed it. www.tanksforsale.co.uk They have alot of other stuff besides tanks for sale. There is anouther place in Rome Georgia that I can remember in the 1970's sold Sherman Tanks but I can not find a web page for them. May have gone out of business.

CrazyD · #35 (**permalink**) December 31st, 2002, 02:54 PM

Heh... JOL, find me someone here who has not mis-spoken!!

I'd agree entirely with your analysis. The T-34 was probably the most influential in the aspects that will win a war . Easy to build, maintain, and repair, plus rugged and powerful enough to impact the battlefield.
However, as far as psychological influence , the Tiger would probably have to win it. I can't think of any tank that was as feared, especially by the western allies, as the Tiger.

Hmmm.... maybe we should have examined the thread's question a bit more- influential how?

Kai-Petri · #36 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 01:27 PM

King Tiger vs Sherman: Just imagine the feeling of the Sherman crews...

"Clang!" The impact of the high-velocity armor-piercing shell shook the King Tiger and hurled Rheinhold Minke, its commander, against the cupola. He straightened up and realized that he, his crew, and his tank, were unhurt. They had taken a direct hit at pointblank range from a Sherman and were unscathed. The terror brought on by the impact gave way to a sense of invulnerability and then, blood lust. "Get 'em, Kurt!" he shouted to his gunner.
Kurt stomped on the treadle plate that rotated the turret. Slowly the huge gun came to bear on the Sherman not 200 meters away. An evil grin spread across Minke's face as he imagined what was going on inside that Sherman right now. "Nothing can save you now!" he muttered triumphantly. The huge gun belched fire, and the Sherman's turret was half torn-off by the impact. The driver's hatch popped open and the driver climbed out, his clothing smoking. "Mow him down!" Minke shouted, but Kurt was already firing the machine gun. The American got ten yards and then his body flopped into the snow like a broken doll.
Another round hit the turret; Minke's nose was broken when his face hit the cupola. Kurt's arm was cut by a metal flake that had spalled off the inside of the turret at the impact point. The spot was still glowing a dull red. Again the huge turret traversed, again the mighty gun roared, and another Sherman disintegrated.
More rounds hit, clawing deep gouges in the Tiger's armor, but never penetrating it. Minke's crew was battered and cut, but not incapacitated. Working methodically, they destroyed two more of their attackers. Then the Americans fled. Rheinhold Minke, king of the battlefield, nursing two cracked ribs and bleeding from the nose, let them go.

http://users.pandora.be/dave.depicke...cdotesbob.html

TheRedBaron · #37 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 02:00 PM

nice anecdote... [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

mtchristman · #38 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 02:53 PM

I would have to go with the T-34. It greatly influenced the Germans in there next generation of tanks. And we all know what kind of influence the German tanks had on the next generation of American tanks. The T-55 thru T-90's all are basically upgunned and uparmored T-34's on a different chassis.

TheRedBaron · #39 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 02:58 PM

Influence on what?

On the outcome of the war? Then T-34 and Sherman

On Tank development? Then for technology this goes to the Germans, Panther et al, but for industrial out put its the T-34 and sherman again.

Bear in mind that it is the T-34 which really sparks the gun/armour race into modern battle tanks...

Mahross · #40 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 04:07 PM

Most influential, definatly the T-34. it effects are still in evidence today. also it eventually gave birth to the the t-54/55 series, which was the most widely produced tank in history.

from britian it has to be the centurion, while it did not serve it was definetly born out the lessons britian had learnt during the war. this tank is still in service today and its main armament, which again was developed from lesson during the war with the 17pdr and QF guns, is still one of the most potent in use today. one of its derivative was still used in the US M1 upto a few years ago when it was superseded by the M1A2.

TheRedBaron · #41 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 04:10 PM

Centurion is just a British King Tiger...

Mahross · #42 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 04:22 PM

No its much better. at least it doesn't break down every five minutes!!

TheRedBaron · #43 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 04:25 PM

But at least mine look cool even when they are broken down! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Mahross · #44 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 04:27 PM

maybe but its not good being stuck in the mud!!

TheRedBaron · #45 (**permalink**) June 27th, 2003, 04:29 PM

Everyone knows the infalibility of the Superior German Armoured might. Mud will never stop us.

Well,apart from Russian mud that is...

Zealot · #46 (**permalink**) June 29th, 2003, 06:41 AM

And Budapest mud, lets not forget Operation Spring Awakening. Did a King Tiger ever roll on Russian tuff? No matter, should go to american, they weedy, dusty mud can't stop a Maus.

The best tank in the field I'd say was either the T-34 or Panzer Mark four.

But then again the Tiger made a big influence, after 60 years the average idiot knows what a Tiger is. Films are based around them, americans shout out there name loudly, 'Tiger tank!' is far more cooler then 'Panzer mark IV with extended barrel!'. It didn't have a major influence on the field, but it has a slight one nowadays.

And, isn't that what war is all about? Spreading influence? The Tiger does that.

TheRedBaron · #47 (**permalink**) June 29th, 2003, 10:19 AM

The Tiger had a huge impact on the battlefield in terms of combat and morale. It could prove to be a decisive weapon if employed correctly. The reputation of the Tiger, that remains today in the public psyche is based upon the allied wartime fear of the tank. To say that it had no impact is wrong. Psycologically it was a weapon to be feared and boost the morale of your own troops. When used correctly one tiger could cause losses out of all proportion, villers-bocage for example.

As for the Panzer IV being the most influential, I aint sure. It was certainly an excellent medium tank design, but always seems to be trying to catch up and contend with the big boys. It certainly didnt shoe the revolutionary design of the T-34.