I notice earlier in this thread Fey's account of his 'destruction' of The 23rd Hussars on August 7th is repeated. This feat is highly improbable. The 23rd Hussars were down to about 10 working Shermans some days before the 7th and if you read Fey's full account you will see that he says he was alone in an empty field, disabled and with other Tigers near him who took no part. He was attacked by aircraft and ran out of ammo. He had to send a crew member to borrow some from the other Tigers and then with 2 rounds left he fired at the 'last' Sherman as it rushed him and only hit it with his very last round-some story!
I think here we have an example of a 'claim' promoted to a 'fact'. All these stories we hear about Tigers 'destroying' dozens of T-34's and Shermans are never verified are they? Perhaps someone could post an account where there is checkable confirmation of a high kill ratio?

Try Villers-Bocage. This is confirmed by both British and German sources.

Ernst Barkmanns action in Normandy at 'Barkmanns Corner'.

There are also several LAH battle reports which document the single handed destruction of enemy tanks by lone Tigers. There is one famous one but his name escapes me, will check in Tiger Commanders of the LAH by Agte when U get home tomorrow. Will also check up on Fey story...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

As to Fey's account I have felt similar thoughts though through the chaos of battle can we determine without a doubt that he was engaging just one British element of tanks ?

Would be nice to prove as well the late 1945 battles of the Königstigers of Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 503 where they claimed over 400 Soviet tanks during the heavy battles in Pommern/Danzig and Berlin. I think it was quite possible....

~E

Villers was not an example of a 'lone Tiger'. Wittmann was supported by at least 2 other Tigers firing down the road (one of which was knocked out). Wittmann's tally was 8 tanks confirmed hit as he went into Villers (2 were stuarts and 2 were OP tanks)and an account by him in which he states he hit 2 others but no independent confirmation of this. Of the Cromwells lost at point 213 it appears that the majority were destroyed bt the crews themselves and you can plainly see in the photos that 'Shufti Cush' and Dunlop's 5th RHA OP Cromwell are undamaged and a German is depicted setting fire to them (why if they are knocked out?) Whilst it was a stunning reverse this action in no way qualifies as an example of a high kill ratio. Every Tiger knocked out that day(up to 8 but some were recovered) was due to a hit and thus the ratio of direct 'kills' would be more in the area of 2:1.

only wittmans tiger went into the town.the problem with this battle is that no one really knows what happened and most sources on it are wrong or follow the 'hollywood' version of events.
What about Barkmanns corner?

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

other tigers did go into villers town but after wittman. of his two tanks in support one went up the road and his original tank broke down before entering the town. it remained at the road junction.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Wittmann was helped by the fire of 2 Tigers as he went into Villers. One (no.231)was hit and knocked out. Accounts by other German Units entering the town later clearly mention 2 disabled Tigers just outside the town with dead and wounded crewmen around them. This is before the foray into Villers by the 1st kp. of 101. I don't dispute that ace's of any nationalty could and did get high scores.However constant repititon of tales such as 200+ T-34's for the loss os 2 or 3 Tigers WITHOUT ANY INDEPENDENT CORROBORATION should be treated cautiously.
I also forgot to include the Pz IV's knocked out in the battle for Villers. They would bring the ratio down as well.

But the markIV entered in the afternoon as part of Lehr. I will have to wait till i get back home and i will post up my LAH report on villers...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

I hate to get in the middle of an entertaining punch-up here but what's the verdict on the conclusions in Taylor's 'Villers-Bocage Through The Lens' ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

On the Normandy module trip we run for uni, we spend a day at villers, and we are still unsure what went on. I believe it to be a mixture of the accounts and next year we have decided to give the students two versions of the events there. Myself and the module leader, who is publishing a book on british armour in normandy both disagree on the events of that day. I think that through the lense is the most likely version as this matches the LAH accounts that I have, as wittmann was not knocked out in the town but on its outskirts. There were seven or eight disabled Tigers in the area but several were recovered before the famous pictures were taken. I am currently researching this as last year we discovered a scale model of the town area during the battle in the town hall. At the moment I am trying to identify the six tigers in the town proper and I believe they all come from 1st company. Maybe I will post some more on this when I get home as we have been trying to locate some other pictures which we believe are in existence, but I dont think we will ever know what really occured. I have Wittmanns report on the battle, and it is only a few lines not the propagandised version that has beome factualised in books like Aces of the Reich.

I think that it is interesting for the reason that it is so well known yet, in my opinion still not complete.

Now back to trying to find those pesky turret numbers...

By the way no-one has a troop list for Wittmanns company on that day? I have one for 6th June but would like one later, or even a list of kia and wounded in the period from D-Day to the battle at Villers so I can establish exactly who had which tiger...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

The ONLY version that says Wittmann was hit outside the town is Taylor's. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to confirm this 'leap of faith' and it is because Taylor tries to fit the known photos to Dyas's version of meeting Wittmann head-on that he has to put Wittmann outside the town. Discard the Dyas version and everything else fits. There is plainly one 2nd kp. Tiger knocked out in the Rue Pasteur just where Wittmann said he was hit. The Dyas account is the problem and either he or Wittmann must were wrong. The only logical conclusion is that Dyas jumbled up the sequence of events. There was no 'fixed' system of crewing and the ranking officer could take any Tiger he wanted from a junior.
Finaly the evidence points towards Wittmann using number 212 at Villers.

Wittman never gives his position of where he was knocked out. He merely states that he was hit 'in the town on his way out'. His Tiger was supposedly hit in the sprocket(?) wheel by a 6pdr and disabled. The Tiger said to be Wittmann shows no damage to wheels or tracks. There is a 6pdr facing down the road and a report from Wittmans first Tiger which broke down from engine trouble that they saw two disabled Tigers at the road junction on the edge of the town. It is possible that one of these was Wittmanns.

I dont believe any of the accounts and merely look at all the accounts to see which is most likely. If you wish I will post up Wittmanns report and that of the other members of LAH 2nd Company from Patrick Agte's book 'Micheal Wittmann and the Tiger Commander of LAH'. This book disagrees with both the account of the action in an autobiography of Wittmann and to some extent with Taylors.

I dont totally agree with Taylors account but feel that an open mind should be kept on the issue. You dont think that one tiger is capable of taking on ten or twenty other tanks, that is your opinion, but then why did the Allies expect to lose seven Shermans or T-34's for one Tiger? There are also several other accounts on the Eastern front of Tigers taking on multiple enemy tanks.

Anyway let me know if you would like me to post these accounts, as I would be interested in your opinion.

RED

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Wittmann's citation: 'His tank was hit and immobilized by a heavy enemy anti-tank gun (Firefly in reality) in the CENTRE of the town'.
Hit in the sprocket by a 6 pdr? says who and where?
There is a photo of the 2nd kp. Tiger in Villers (page 398, Agte). Whilst it is true that in the top photo the sprocket teeth are missing in an earlier photo of the same vehicle it plainly is still fitted (Taylor page 67, bottom right) This is 212 from 2nd kp. and is Wittmann's Tiger.
I hope the autobiography of Wittmann you are using is not Gary L Simpson's 'Tiger ace'. It is fiction.
There are two accounts of 'knocked out Tigers'. The first (Leo Enderle, page 321 Agte)is a Lehr Pz IV crewman and he is clearly talking about the Tigers hit INSIDE Villers.
The next version (Hans Burkhardt,Agte page 321/323)also a Lehr crewman, describes 2 Tigers OUTSIDE Villers 'at the edge of a forest'
There is no evidence of any use of the 6 pdr. gun mentioned by Taylor and indeed he himself has no evidence and says it is what he THINKS might have happened.
Whilst I have heard the 'lose 7/8/9/10 Shermans for one Tiger' tale many times I have never seen any documentation of it from 1944/45.

That is not what wittman says in his after action report.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Dont remember him stating it was a heavy anti-tank gun. Anyway I dont have the books with me.

Btw I had gathered Simpson work is incorrect as I previously stated.

Anyway I shall leave this thread to its original theme.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

It's a pity I missed this thread! All your posts are very interesting actually!

I agree with Crazy's mention that the technologycal influence is also very important. Then the T-34, Panther and Tiger were very influential in that way! And of course, let's not forget about the Mark III. Dr Porsche's suspension used in this tank influentiated a lot of designs later! Look at the M-1 Abrahams nowadays, its suspension is based on those of the Mark III.

And I also agree that the most important psychological influence was the Tigers', both versions. But let's remember the T-34 too. Specially in 1941-1942 when the Germans had nothing to deal with it...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I would say T-34, but it can also be argued that the Panzer III was because without the help the Panzer III in Germany's initial advances, the T-34 might not have been needed.

The T-34 won the Eastern Front, that was it. Now, the Sherman was the mainstay of the Commonwealth, the main battle tank of the Pacific War, rearmed the French, was one of the spearheads of Bagration and beyond on the Eastern Front. While derided for its odd shape and some of its qualities, it was everywhere and anywhere the Axis was being fought and continued to soldier on right up to today as a battle tank (the Chileans are using ex-Israeli M52 Super Shermans as their MBT).
That's a record unmatched by any other WW 2 tank.

Now in terms of design, the Pz III is probably the most influential. Torsion bar suspension with medium sized road wheels. A five man crew layout with a very efficent turret design. For its time an excellent dual purpose armament with lots of machineguns to help. The T34 adds to this rear sprocket drive and sloped armor. But, the Pz III really remains the archetype of modern tanks.

Do you mean to say the T-34 development was a consequence of the PzIII onset in the East (visible from June '41 onwards)?

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JagdTiger, so if the PzKpfw III was not used in Russia, the T34 would not have been produced?

From what I know, the T34 was already in production by the time the Germans invaded.
Though I could be wrong, as I have been many times...

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No, I'm saying that the T 34 added a bit to the design and development of the modern MBT. But, the Pz III was there first. Certainly, the T34 added little to modern tank design in terms of suspension, tracks, crew layout, etc; just armor arrangement.