Which do you think they were?

We always talk about the "Tiger" and the "Panther" because of their power and technology. But they did little for the German war effort, except for being a terrible headache for the Allies...

The T-34 was for sure the most important tank in the Red Army, not only because of its reliability and power, also because it was the tank which was found in biggest quantities in the Soviet armoured units.

The M-4 "Sherman" was for sure the main and most important tank in the American Army, because it was almost USA's only tank design by 1944. This speaks very well about the M-4, because it could do all the jobs that a tank must do.

In the British Army we could speak about the "Matilda" as the most influential tank in the first stages of the war 1940-1941. It was the only tank that could face German tanks with equality. Its 78mm armour was powerful enough to resist all the German tanks' guns and its 2-pounders gun could do some damages to Germany's eearly models, including the Panzer III. And later in the war, the "Sherman" became the most important tank in British armoured units, more important than British-made tanks, because of its number and combat qualities.

And about Germany, the PzKmpfw III is for sure the most important, because it was the backbone of all the Panzer divisions from 1939-1943 because it was a perfectly balanced and reliable tank. In the first years of the war, the most advanced PzKmpfw IV was not available in such large quantities as the PzKmpfw III was. During Poland, France, the Balcans, North Africa and the Soviet Union the Panzer III was the standard tank in the Panzer divisions; the tank which did almost all the work. Even if it didn't have a very thick armour nor a very powerful gun, it was fast and reliable, perfect for the Blitzkrieg. That is why Guderian liked it so much. And from second half of 1943 and for the rest of the war the PzKmpfw IV was the tank that you found in largest quantities in the front and that was much more reliable and mobile than the heavier and more famous models. Both were also very flexible tanks speaking about design, because they were constantly improved and they had a very outstanding combat record.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

For 'influence' I would nominate the T-34.

Relatively simple design, sloping armourplate all-round, wide tracks, uncomplicated suspension system...

It was a shock to the Germans and I believe that the Allies must have looked closely at it too , judging by immediate post-war trends in tank design.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I agree on T-34 and its versions being probably the ones that influenced the war most. If Germans had known about this tank before Barbarossa...Who knows?Maybe they would have built a better tank for the attack first... or maybe not.They might have thought that Luftwaffe will still do the job, the "flying artillery".

But definitely the T-34 with its sloped armor, 76.2 mm gun, and even with its certain deficits!

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The T34 was very influencial, and would probably get my vote. But its' only innovations where it well sloping armor, wide tracks, and "Christie" suspension.

However, lets not forget the Tiger tank. This tank was not just big and powerful. It was also high on new technology! It featured power steering (you could steer a Tiger with litterally one finger!!), powered turret(which the gunner moved by using a pedal at his feet). It also had a much easier gearbox for the driver to use. Basically you shifted it just like a car!
It also had large, layered road wheels(if one road wheel was damaged or blown off, the remaining wheels still allowed the tank to travel!), smoke dischargers, binocular gun sights, as well as several other inovations.

I think I would pick the Tiger as the most innovative tank of the war.

Matt

Not much to add here, except to chime in with previous posters on the T-34.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

I would also have to go with the T-34. Not only for the effect on the Russian war effort but also the innovative design which spurred the designs in the Panther and Tiger II. Quite influencial.

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T-34 for sure...

regards

The Tiger? Indeed, the most technologically innovative, but FAR away from the most influential.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I dont know Friedrich...the Tiger was quite the schock for the allies, and im sure it led to major improvements among allied tanks, and new ones like the m26 pershing.

Although T-34 still the most influential.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

I've heard nothing but bad stories about the sherman from vets that drove it - no armor, small gun, high profile, etc. I think it's influence was only one of numbers/production. I'd have to agree that the t-34 had the most influence in the war, but the tiger had more post war influence. From what I understand most western nations really kind of used alot of its principles and design.

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Living History at http://oldreliable9_47.tripod.com

Wouldn't the panther be more important in that case?

regards

I like the Panther but they didn't win the war did they!

My choice would be split between the T 34 and the M 4 Sherman because Shermans could be so easily built so quickly.

[ 14. November 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Kiwi Ace ]

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David

When you go home
Tell them of us, and say
For your tomorrow
We gave our today.

Well, if you compare it to a heavy tank like a Tiger I suppose that is true. Stack it up against a T-34 or Pz-IV it doesn't look so bad. Guards Colonel Dmitri Loza has quite a few good things to say about the Lend-Lease Shermans he fought in:

http://www.iremember.ru/tankers/loza/loza1.html

I especially like the story about how they took care of attacking Tigers...

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

That´s a nice story, indeed. Thanx Heartland for putting the site for us here!

That requires nerves of steel to kill "Tiger" like that. What if you don´t hit the track and the "Tige" does not show its side...I don´t want to know actually...boom boom...

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The Tigers would have been the most influential tanks of the war if there would have been 6.000 of them instead of 1.355, but we know that you must be Crazy and have smoked some weird stuff like Crazy to think that it was possible to build 6.000 Tigers...

It was a psychological blow for the Western Allies and a big tank for the Russians. But you could overwhelm it throwing 15 Shermans or three T-34s against it...

The Panther did not have any significance at all in the war. Its major two offensive were complete disasters... All because of its technical failures.

Yes, but if you compare a Sherman to a Tiger, the Tiger has indeed much more advantages and better qualities than the Sherman, not only its bigger gun, its thicker armour, its lower sillhouette, its lesser pressure over the ground (even if it weighed 40 tons more than the Sherman!). But the Sherman was far more mobile and reliable. And in mobile warfare these last two are more important.

What you cannot do is to compare the Sherman and the T-34 and expect fine results. If you do this you will find out that the Sherman was only a stupid sardine can... The T-34 has a thicker armour, bigger gun, is faster, more mobile, as reliable, as easy to produce, has a lower sillhouette, it has a better cross-country capability, etc. The Sherman only has one advantage: a radio set. Put a radio on a T-34 and the Sherman goes straight to hell because the only favourable qualities of the Sherman (mobility, reliability and easy production and manteinance) are equaled or improved by the T-34.

And if we compare the Sherman with the PzKmpfw IV in its later versions... Again... The Panzer IV was the only German tank that was very mobile and very reliable. It has a slightly thicker armour and a much powerful gun...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

One of the tigers problems was those road wheels previously mentioned, ice and mud could jam them up- so the Panther and King Tiger had overlapping wheels as an improvement.

Damn, I am going to miss Friedrich until he returns!!! Heh...

I do have to slightly disagree with one of Friedrich's point though... I don't think the wartime success or failure of a certain tank necessarily is the same as it's "influence"... I would say, despite the small numbers, that Tigers were influential in that they began to demonstrate just how much firepower and technology could be put into a tank.

I think if you are looking at which tanks were the most influential, you should avoid technical details and go more towards efecct on contemporary tank designs and armored warfare.
Looking at the T-34 AND the Sherman- both if these tanks were very influential in the "mass-production" area. These two tanks solidly demonstrated that for any tank, production was a hugely important factor- in addition to battlefield performance. The 15 sherman vs. one tiger analogy is a good one here... In some cases, the actaul quality of the tank becomes secondary to the conditions it fights in. And if one combatant can manufacture 15 tanks to fight each one from the enemy, this is clearly an advantage!
[aside here- clearly, there were many factors effecting the ability of each WW2 combatant nation to produce tanks- tank design was only ONE of these factors. I do not mean to give this aspect total importance!]
The T-34 was also very influential in general "armored warfare" theory. The T-34 stressed some factors that would become key in armored warfare... Mobility (the wide tracks and sturdy engine), protection (sloped armor may be a technical detail... but more or less every tank since has used this "obvious" innovation!), and durability (ease of repair, few complex parts...).
Considering this, I'd say the T-34 was the most influential tank across the board...

One other aspect- I think it was really german tanks (Tiger, Panther...) that demonstrated the "potential" for tanks and tank developement. As has already been mentioned, some of the german tanks pioneered technology that had lasting impacts on tank design. Also, I think the germans consistently pushed the limits of what could be done with tank design and firepower.

Heinie- good shot on the Tiger wheels. This was a distinct problem, especially on the russian front. The mud, snow and ice encountered there would often result in treads jamming due to the road wheels becoming stuck or frozen in place.

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Quite true, Crazy!

T-34 when it first appeared was devastating! It could kill German tanks but the Germans could not kill it..Then with the Tiger the tables changed again.The Tiger could kill T-34 from a distance of 1.5-2 kms in the Russian fields and there was nothing to do for the Russian tankers...

I think there are some orders for Russian tankers for ramming the Germans but I don´t remember it being used widely except in propaganda.

"The achievements of the 502nd, 503rd and 505th heavy tank battalions' crews are more than just impressive.

During the Battle of Kursk from July 4th till August 23rd, 1943, the Tiger tanks vividly demonstrated its might as the heavy tank battalions and companies suffered minimal casualties. The 503rd and 505th heavy tank battalions lost only three tigers each during the course of the Operation Citadel and another 13 tanks were lost during the retreat from Kursk region. In other words, for 50 days of engagement at Kursk, two tank battalions lost only 19 tanks.

The Tigers' cannons had a unitary loading system and thus higher rate of fire than IS-2 tanks (a 122mm cannon of an IS-2 tank had a separated loading system). For instance, in the battle on January 12, 1945, Tigers of 3/507 s. Pz.-Abt destroyed 22 IS-2 tanks.

A better training was an additional advantage of the Tigers' crews over its Soviet opponents. Only volunteers with a previous combat experience were selected into heavy tank battalions.
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Along with the Panzer Lehr Division (who only recieved a few Tigers), Großdeutschland was the only other Army division to be specifically equipped with Tiger I tanks. With their expansion from Panzergrenadier division to panzer division they started to receive their allocation of Tiger tanks in February 1943 with one full company of Tiger tanks and two other tank battalions making up their panzer capability.
These new Tigers were incorporated into 13. Company and saw their first action during the re-taking of Kharkov and played a significant part in destroying the 300 Soviet tanks during the battle for the city.
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On 13 May 1943, 6 more Tiger Is were delivered to Grossdeutschland, giving them a total of 15, organized into four platoons.On 30 June 1943 12 of these were operational, and on 1 July 14 of the 15 were operational. In the first week of operation Zitadelle, the Tiger company advanced 20 miles with the rest of the Division GD and destroyed almost 60 Russian tanks for the loss of just six Tigers.(?? as it says in a sentence just previously that they lost none...)
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sPzAbt.503 fought with great distinction in some fierce engagements with Soviet armour in the Dnieper area near Cherkassy. On one particular occasion in a five day battle in the Balabonowka Pocket they destroyed 267 Soviet tanks for the loss of one Tiger and four Panthers. For this action Dr Franz Bake who commanded the regiment was awarded the Oakleaves to the Knights Cross.
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Overall, approximately 1000 Tiger tanks took part in the battles on the Eastern Front, and they destroyed around 8000 Soviet tanks. This ration of kills over losses (1:8) was not equaled by any other tank of the Second World War.

http://www.eliteforces.freewire.co.u...attalions.html

http://www.panzer-vi.fsnet.co.uk/units.html

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/tigers.htm

http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?OTH-114

The western front:

On 22 June 1944, a single Tiger platoon of sPzAbt 504 stopped a Fifth Army attack dead in its tracks near Parolla, destroying 11 of the 23 Shermans which were leading the assault. The 12 survivors were abandoned by their crew and captured by the Germans by a counter-attack. Tiger's epitaph was written in France in 1944 where it finally proved its best not in attack but in defence; a Tiger which picked its spot and waited for the enemy to blunder onto it could execute enormous destruction.

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Tiger!

"The following battles took Tigers and their crews to the honors. The SS-Unterscharfuhrer Franz Staudegger was one of them, destroying 22 Russian tanks in single day's clash. The SS journal, Das Schwarze Korps, so described his exploit.

..a strong Soviet armored unit is spotted. The Unterschrfuhrer Franz Staudegger, a big and large Carinthian, jumps on the turret of his Tiger and heads for the front. On the ridge, a grenadier signal to him that five Soviet tanks have already been destroyed by Panzerjagers in close assaults. In a few minutes the Tiger's gun destroys other three T-34s. Staudegger moves his Panzer towards the noman's land.

Two other T-34s appeared on the railway. In the space of a minute they are reduced to flaming wreckage. Other five tanks are after the rear side of the rail-ridge. They are also destroyed in a fierce exchange of gunfires. Continuing to advance Staudegeer finally see the announced Soviet armored formation in a large downhill. Rapid as an eagle, the gun fires round after round from a protected position. 22 tanks are destroyed, the anti-tank projectiles are exhausted. The remaining tanks are hit by explosive rounds which damage a big number of them.

Staudegger returns on rear-march with his Tiger tank, maintaining the opponents to a security distance. The ammunitions are exhausted, the engine is giving some troubles and the fuel is nearly out. The grenadiers hails with enthusiasm the Tiger passing through their positions. Sponteneausly the Regimental commander bestow the 1st Class Iron Cross to the audacious panzer commander. The Fuhrer confers him the Cross of Knight of the Iron Cross for his extraordinary courage and engagement."

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Some sources state that Franz was commanding Tiger # 1325 or 1322 this date. He was in Untersturmführer Helmut Wendoff's 2nd Platoon.
Franz's gunner this date was SS Panzerschütze Heinz Buchner. Franz after this defence and awarding of the Ritterkreuz seemed to have gone into obscurity. I have around 35 or so kills chalked up for him.

E

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Nice info,thanx, Erich!

By the way, any idea if Bobby Woll was the only gunner who could shoot and hit with Tiger on the move?? It is one sorta legend..

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Kai :

Buchner was one of the top gunners in the 1st SS and I can imagine he racked up a good score while staionary as well as on the move. I can also think of Karl Bromann and Karl Körner of SS Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 in the Pommern and around Danzig knocking out about 66 to 100 Soviet panzers in their big Königstigers, many times on the move forward and backwards to firm positions.
Ernst Barkmann in the Ardenne when he created total chaos along a dark street, the Panther on a move forward attacked a whole column of Shermans and destroyed every one of the parked tanks, travelling at high speed out of the village and down the road until they hit a crossroads and parked in the underbrush waiting for the Shermans.....what was left of them to attack him.
Willi Fey in Tiger 1 # 134? destroyed 15 Shermans, 12 recon vehicles, 1 AT gun and numerous half tracks on August 7, 1944 on the N-158 near Chenedolle.

E

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Thanx alot Erich!

very interesting information again!

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Sturmgeschütz Aces

Probably the most successful engagement involving Sturmgeschutz III Ausf F took place in Stalingrad in early September of 1942. Stug III Ausf F from Stug.Abt.244, commanded by Oberwachtmeister Kurt Pfreundtner destroyed 9 Soviet tanks in 20 minutes. On September 18th of 1942, Oberwachtmeister Kurt Pfreundtner received the Knights Cross for this achievement.

Another Sturmgeschutz ace was the Knights Cross holder Wachtmeister Kurt Kirchner from Stug.Abt.667, who destroyed 30 Soviet tanks during few days in February of 1942 during fighting in Northern Russia.

Hauptmann Peter Franz also the Knights Cross holder and the commander of Stug.Abt. "Grossdeutschland" destroyed some 43 Soviet T-34/76 tanks during the Battle for Borissovka on March 14th of 1943.

In the middle of July of 1941, Oberfeldwebel Rudolf Jaenicke (Stug number 25), commander of Stug platoon destroyed 12 Soviet BT-2 tanks along with tractors and other equipment loaded on rail platforms.

Between 1st and 4th of January of 1943, Unteroffizier Horst Naumann from Stug.Abt.184 destroyed 12 Soviet tanks during heavy fighting in the Demyansk area. On January 4th, Naumann was awarded with Knight's Cross for destruction of total of 27 enemy tanks.

The most notable of all Stug aces were von Malachowski, Franz and especially Knight's Cross holder Oberwachtmeister Hugo Primozic of Stug.Abt.667.

The most notable Waffen SS Stug ace was SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Walter Kniep, who commanded the 2nd Sturmgeschuetz Abteilung of 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich". From July 5th of 1943 to January 17th of 1944, his unit claimed destruction of some 129 Soviet tanks, while losing two Stugs. Kniep was then awarded the Knight's Cross.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

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Kai :

And Kniep was very unfortunate in his demise. He was transferred over to GvB 17th SS Stug Abt. as Kommandeur and he was killed by a stray bullet when someone was attempting to unload their Luger pistol... ! Arg ! From here the 17th SS with Stug's ausf G's took part in the Normandy campaign and the unit lost all it's stug's with only the destruction of some 15 or so Sherman's to it's credit. The Abteilung commandeur that replaced Kniep also met his end in Normandy being captured by the Maquis and killed near Laval on August 6/7 1944.....Sturmbannführer Ludiwg Kepplinger.
Possibly the most effective unit in the W-SS during Normandy armed with stug's/Pz. Jagd IV's may have been 12th SS Panzerjagd Abt. armed with the Pz. jagd IV. During the month of August 44 it cmae to confront masses of Polish armor, and during one instance the Abt. destroyed over 40 Shermans.

E

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