I was wondering, if this German jet fighter was released on time as a fighter, would it of been enough to turn the tide. I ain't too good at aircraft so does anyone have a general idea of how good it would of been against Mustangs and B-17s?

Z :

An excellent start would be to check out:

www.stormbirds.com

and also if you can find exerpts of Manfred Boehmes JG 7 work in English as this jet fighter claimed some 425 a/c in it's short history. Or the OOP title, the Galland Circus, JV 44 by Classic Publications.


Could the jet have made a difference in the air war in the ETO. Yes if it had been released in 1941. This is so hard to say as the Allies won mastery of the air by the fall of 1944 and the jet was not really in the combat role until January/February 1945. Of course in the case of the jet the engines were of short life. Special fuels involved. A lengthy airfield/strip for the jet to take-off and land and also during 44-45 the Luftwaffe had not come to grips with protecting their coveted a/c with any type of serious high cover squadrons of Bf 109's or Fw 190 single engine prop fighters. The result of course is the easy demise of the jet as it slowed down and landed and being caught from behind by the nimble P-51 during an event known as "rat catching". Typically what little defense these jet airfields had was single 37mm and quad 20mm weapons systems which seemed to fire at anything that flew low enough over their airfields, both German as well as Allied.

hth

~E

Erich says the main points on the matter.

I´d say with Me-262 , if already possible by 1941, well they would have had a fighting chance for the battle of the skies.Maybe if it had been ready by 1943 as well.I think it was not until 1944 as the Mustangs started patrolling all the way to the Germany (?) and that´s when the German losses started to turn awful for fighters.

Against the allied fighters ( protecting the bombers ) Me-262 could strike and leave, and with the rockets and their new versions the destruction would have been awful.
Of course there were engine and fuel problems but with earlier production many of these problems would have been taken care of, I think.

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The Me-262 would have prolonged the war but I don't think it could have won the war for the Germans. The British and Americans were into airpower but the Russians were into ground forces and the Me-262 would not be a major factor for the Russians. It would have caused them more causilites, but life was cheap for Stalin and the foward airfields on the eastern front were not well suited for jet operations.

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I have to disagree with your last staement TA.

Manfred Boehme gives credit to JG 7's ground attack missions where the unit (not written about on the Ost front in detail), destroyed literally hundreds of Soviet MT and other soft skinned vehicles......
had the jet been reconditioned by late 44 with newer powerplants and extensive fuel cells things may have turned out different ......... but we will never know

I was thinking more along the lines of what happened in Viet Nam to the USA. We had almost total air power but still had little effect on the Ho Chi Ming trail. B-52s ended our envolment there, not fighter-bombers like the Me-262 could have been. But as you say we will never know for sure. I just wanted to clarify how I was thinking about the question. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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Ich verstehen Ta !

But can you imagine at the start of Barborassa wave upon wave of fighter and fighter-bomber versions of the Me 262 flying east ?

~E

I think if the Germans had had the pilots and the fuel by the end of the war there would have been quite alot of trouble around by the Me-262´s that were built...

Although little more than 500 Me 262s had been produced by December 1944, by the end of the war the total had risen to about 1.430. Fewer than 300 saw combat. Most remained on the ground awaiting conversion to bombers, or were unable to fly because of lack of fuel, spare parts, or trained pilots.


BTW, here ´s something on Me-262´s production analysis:

http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/index.htm

quite detailed info..

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well I can tell you too that if the case would of happened there might have been another 1-2 different jets showing up in the Reich skies.......

getting back to the origianl question. The Me 262 A-1a had a problem with it's turning radius and this was never fullfilled in it's short history as a fighter. So when in response to P-51 jump type attacks all the jet pilot could do was open it up and fly straight like an arrow to outdistance itself from it's persuerer.
True there were victories agasint the P-51 escorts but this was not often the case. Only in such instances when the jets had a higher altitude and could dive unaware with the sun at their backs did they have an edge.
Against the B-24 and B-17 formations it was another story.........usually a slaughter if Allied escorts were not at hand. Aand after 18 March 1945 JG 7 jets were also equipped with the very lethal R4M missiles.
It was found the turrets of the B-17/B-24 could not track the jet fast enough when coming down through it's 'Porpoise' attack against the rear and through the US bomber formation. Same appearance through RAF Lancasters on several missions.

~E

On a different tact, had the Germans managed to get a jet operational earlier (either the He 280 or Me 262)say, by late 42 early 43 it would have been a temporary advantage. The problem with technology of any kind in modern war is that advantages are usually short lived and, the more important a technology is the more likely it will be countered quickly with equal technology. In this case, the Allies (and the US in particular) would have applied, as I like to say, cubic dollars at the problem and in short order had jets equal to or better than those of the Germans in production and in far greater quantity.
This is very likely if the German jet proved highly effective. So, once again, it comes down to the question: In the period between the Germans introducing this technology and gaining a clear technical and tactical edge can they convert it into a into a strategic advantage? I for one doubt it.
The Germans had a penchant for developing a good technological edge and then producing a handful of this item, introducing it into combat prematurely and, then losing both the technical and tactical advantages gained along with the suprise value of it by frittering it away in "penny packets" for nought.
A good example of introducing a technology correctly is the British use of Window. They ensured they had a counter, they used it enmasse in a major raid (and everywhere thereafter) and, as a result gained a major tactical advantage for almost 6 months before the Germans really had a reasonable counter for it (no, Wilde Sau was not a reasonable counter...not at a loss rate approaching 75% per mission from enemy action, accidents, etc.).

sorry but 75% is quite incorrect for Wilde Sau. Possibly 35 % maximum. The largest efforts against RAF command were at the start of the single engine resistance and that being in July of 43 with losses of 13 a/c with average 240+ individual pilot missions and in the month of August 43 with 27 losses and over 400+ individual pilot missions flown. these tallies come from official sources on JG 300 in my data base and Jg 301 did not lose it's first a/c till September 3/4, 1943

Just a question I have had on mind for a longer time.I know the US industry was huge but how long a time it would have taken to change the course in order to make new "jets" etc?

I take the Sherman-Pershing example here.

" A better tank than the Sherman was available, but the Army had chosen not to procure it. The M26 Pershing was rejected. "

http://www.strategypage.com/bookreviews/184.asp

The allied knew of Tigers from North African battles and knew how Sherman coped with it. Yet the main tank was Sherman 1 1/2 years later on.Some may say it was Patton´s fault (" Pershing was rejected, in part of because of General Patton’s insistence that armored divisions should avoid and bypass enemy armor" ) but I think a lot has to do with the economic pressure that a new tank production would bring.

So I just wonder if the brilliant P-51 would have been changed to a jet very soon. In this case I believe the trust in "more planes than the enemy" would have worked. IF the Germans had jets by 1941-42.

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Well, they were working on it with the Lockheed Shooting Star : -

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap37.htm

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Here´s a list for jet aircraft development in WW2

http://www.ww2pacific.com/jethist.html

"Over two thousand jet aircraft were in existence before the end of War Two."

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