One of the war's enduring myths ( and one which I held for many years ) concerned Hitler's intervention in the Me-262 production saga.

The myth goes something like this : -

'Messerschmitt designed a fantastic jet fighter & when it was demonstrated to Hitler he turned around and said I want this aircraft built as a bomber ! So the design had to be changed, delaying production by months, and all early 262s lumbered into the air carrying bombs. So Hitler's foolishness denied Germany the use of a war-winning weapon'.

Exagerrated, but you get what I mean.

Certainly, Hitler had decreed in March 1943 that all aircraft designed for the Luftwaffe must have fighter-bomber capability and Messerschmitt himself spoke enthusiastically of using the 262 as a fast bomber to attack Britain. But despite Hitler's enthusiasm for the bomber, most early development work centred ( at F.M. Milch's insistence ) on preparing the aircraft as a bomber-destroyer. Hitler became aware of this on May 23rd, 1944 and was enraged. He now insisted that all be built as 'Blitzbombers', an order rescinded in September.

But by D-Day, only 30 aircraft had been delivered to the Luftwaffe anyway and great difficulties were being experienced with engine reliability. Hitler's decree did delay the delivery of the first significant numbers of 262 fighters by 3-4 weeks ; many airframes had been sitting idle awaiting delivery of engines.

So Hitler didn't help matters, but the greatest single blow to early completion of Me-262s was struck by the 8th Air Force who bombed the Messerschmitt factory at Regensburg on 17th August, 1943 killing 400 and destroying many vital Me-262 fuselage jigs and acceptance gauges.

The above information has been culled from ' Me 262 Vol. 1 ' by Smith & Creek and Alfred Price's article in Aeroplane , June 2003.

Anyone like to discuss ? I freely admit that I'm on a 'Me-262 learning curve...'

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

The story reminds me of the requirment that someone in the German military had that medium and heavy bombers had to have dive bombing capibilities. The He-177 Grief was handicapped by this and the coupled engine idea, which by the way was said that Hitler said the coupled engine would not work. I don't know if this story is true or fiction also. Can you image the terrior of dive bombing in a huge aircraft like the He-177 ?? Someone should have know better.

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If I remember right Göring (again!) was mixing things up there as well. Didn´t Hitler ask Göring if Me-262 could take bombs? And Hermann answered "Of course!" or something like this...

[img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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Thanks for opening the thread, Martin!

We already came to conlcussion last year that Me-262 even in great quantities in 1943 couldn't win the air war by itself. We destroyed another myth!

And we now are destroying that myth of Hitler messing everything he got his nose into up. As you said, Hitler delayed the process for a few weeks, not decisive time. And there's another thing to say that people often forgets, that Hitler took advices from his military adjutants and consultants before making a decision. This, and Hitler's amazing technical memory made him no dumb person. If Hitler decided that the Me-262 could be used as a bomber it was because he knew it had technical specifications apropriate for a fast light bomber, but because people who knew a lot about aircraft, rightfully or wrongly, told the Führer that it was possible.

Is this meant for making Friedrich eat his words about the Allied air offensive? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Interesting. In von Below´s memoirs he says that when Hitler asked if the Me 262 could carry bombs it was Mr Messerschmitt himself who said the plane could take bombs with it and not Hermann! So maybe it wasn´t Hermann ( this time ) mixing thing up?

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How bout Heinkels jet? it went over 500 mph, & was ready before 262. & No, I'm not arguing that it could have won the war.

Heinkel He 280 archive file
Heinkel He 280. Heinkel He 280. A german turbojet fighter, the first of all that could have been operational. ... Maiden flight on april, 5th, 1941. Heinkel, always interested in high speed aircraft, sponsored quite early ... a 45° angle (usual around 80°!), its acceleration was low, its Mk108 ...www.geocities.com/lastdingo/aviation/he280.htm - 7k - Cached - More from this site - Save - Block

Well, as usual, link didn't work, so here is whole thing.

Heinkel He 280

Heinkel He 280

A german turbojet fighter, the first of all that could have been operational. Maiden flight on april, 5th, 1941. Heinkel, always interested in high speed aircraft, sponsored quite early the turbojet development of von Ohain and had because of this advantage the first experimental turbojet plane (He178) in flight. The He280 was a twinjet fighter developed for two He S8 (also called He109-001) radial turbojet engines. It had a modern bow-wheel landing gear (conventional ones caused problems with lifting up the tail without the propeller air stream on the horizontal fins) and an ejection seat. The german ministry of aviation (RLM) was quite upset of Heinkel´s private initiative and set up its own turbojet program, favoring competitors (that were´nt so far advanced) concerning both engine and airframe development (BMW, Jumo and Messerschmidt). This had as major result that the He S8 hadn´t enough development priority, and that´s why the heavier but stronger Jumo109-004 and BMW109-003 engines and the Me262 fighter (by far not as maneuvrable as the He280, which outmaneuvred a Fw190 in a mock dogfight, and in 1941 with conventional wings and landing gear). The He280 was a fighter, the Me262 just a heavy interceptor that could slip through the escorts. Nine prototypes, no others.

My comment:
The really interesting thing - except that it could have been operational short after Me262´s maiden flight - is its maneuvrability. The Me262 was
designed for top speed, yes, even more speed than useful (with 150km/h twice as much speed advantage than necessary for dogfight superiority).
It wasn´t usual to curve in a Me262 with more than a 45° angle (usual around 80°!), its acceleration was low, its Mk108 armament was especially
good for destruction of medium to heavy bombers at close distance only and it had a 50% higher weight and wing load.
The Me262 shot down some fighters like P-51D, but in the hands of aces like Galland!
The He280 instead had similar maneuverability like the Fw190A (wingload 4125kg : 21.5m2 = 191kg/m2, less than Fw190D!) and was
with its speed advantage and good armament most probably the best dogfighter of World War 2, especially in hit-and-run tactics.
The HeS08 and BMW109-003 engines had better handling and provided better acceleration than the Jumo109-004.

This leads to a multiple mission profile I´ve developed for it in the last time; Spring 1944, beginning of effective 8th AF fighter escort
( Two He280 wings in France, two northwest of the Ruhr area and one in the line Bremen-Hamburg, defended by 20mm and 37mm AAA.
Stronger armour plating to protect the pilot against 0.5" M2 machine guns.)
3. Interception of recon planes (Mosquito PR XVI, Spitfire XI, F-5 Lightning, F-6 Mustang) in Rotte formation (2 planes) by the wing staffs
4. Interception of medium to heavy bombers with R4M rockets with hit-once-and-run tactic at group strength
(the deadly R4M was actually developed in late 1944, but so simple that it could have been operational years earlier; the 8th AF just had luck.)
5. Interception of P-51 fighters that follow the bomber formations with a delay as cover for the phase deep in enemy´s land (in group strength).
(Interception at that time forces the P-51 to decide between dropping all external tanks (and give no cover) or to be shot down.)
6. Interception of fighter-bombers and light bombers near the own airfield (self-protection & forcing them to release bombs and abort mission).


Behind this cover (if after the R4M Orkan salvos necessary anymore) heavily armed and armoured fighters could have attacked the B-17 and B-24
without great danger by escort fighters; the same situation as before introduction of the P-51B and the only situation where the low quality of german
fighter pilot training wouldn´t have hurt. The allied capability for doing air reconnaissance would have been over germany as low as the german over
england, a decisive factor for long-range operations. In such good fighters, the losses of expert and veteran pilots wold have been small and the
Luftwaffe would have been able to repel attacks or even the complete strategic daylight bombing campaign even against the P-51!
If you think there´s anything political ar patriotic behind these lines, you should read
my critic on USAAF´s strategic air war against the "Third Reich" carefully.


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Specifications:
Heinkel He 280V-3 german jetfighter
Dimensions:
Wing span: 12,20m
Length: 10,40m
Height: 3,06m
Weights:
Empty: 3.055kg
Maximum Take-Off: 4.125kg
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 820km/h (official)
Service Ceiling: 11.500m
Normal Range: 970km
Powerplants:
Two 600kp HeS 8A (He109-001A) radial turbojets
Armament:
three 20mm MG151/20 in the nose


He 280 three-side drawing
He 280 taking off or landing

He 280 model photo 1

He 280 model photo 2

1/48 He280 built by Bill Howell

I´m sorry for so much models in the photo list, but photos
of the He280 from a good angle are very rare.

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What ever jet or jets the Germans used or could have used they still had to overcome some small problems such as lack of fuel, having allied aircraft shoot them down in the landing pattern, very short lived jet engines due to metal problems. I think it was around 10 hours and lack of good pilots left to fly them. I read they even had a free Russian squadron flying 262's toward the end of the war. That is really scrapping the bottom of the barrel for the Germans.
German technology was great but it does not win wars. Brute force like the Russians used win wars.

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The Heinkel He 280 is ( yet another ! ) interesting 'what if?'.

There's a lot of information ( and a good selection of photos ) in William Green's 'Warplanes Of The Third Reich' .

There's no way of proving it either way, but I must admit I'm dubious about the jet fighter 'conquering it's Fw 190A adversary with ease....' as quoted from this book. Was that at all altitudes ? Also it was an early 190A - how would the 280 have fared against later P51s and Griffon-engined Spitfires ? The WWII production jet engines suffered all sorts of reliability problems in service ; Heinkel's own jet engine had many problems as did BMW's 003 so the Jumo engines were probably all that was going to be available for production aircraft.

Despite the undoubted personal politics between the Luftwaffe, RLM, Messerschmitt and Heinkel the Me 262 probably had the edge for Germany's war requirements in 1944/45.

Given the Reich's situation, it's really incredible how much time and effort was expended on these revolutionary aircraft.....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Jet engines had 25 hr duration, but that was not really a problem, unbolt old one, throw new one in. Simple.

Fuel however was a problem. Dogfighting advanced allied prop jobs is somewhat interesting, but really the best use of these was "not" to dogfight fighters, but rather to get high, knock down bombers, scream to the deck & call it a day.