Well that was some "hard" data. How did the p-40 fare? & what are the #'s on the 3rd ranked plane? after the 51 & 47?

I realize a stat comparison is impossible between the Hellcat & 47, but performance stats & maneuverability comparisons should not be too tough.

Erich, here is the reply.


Steve, I'm fairly sure Stan, the 55th FG was flying P-51s in '45. Also, Stan did not shoot down any Doras. He shot down two 109s, of which he's not particularly proud, as he said, the "pilots," actually kids learning to be pilots were on a landing approach when Stan encountered them. He said he slightly overflew the first one, but backed off, and the kid stayed the course and their eyes met, and Stan said "hell, he looked like he was 14!" Regardless, Stan shot him down. He got a second one in the same manor - i.e. another "kid" coming in to land with wheels down. Stan mentions the Dora out of respect for the aircraft, that being, he thought it fo a first class fighter. When he says we managed to prang a few of them, he means others in the 55th FG, not him.
Tom

now this is making much more sense, yes the 55th had P-51's not sure where the P-38 's were coming into this picture as I don;t think any P-38 ever ran into a Dora unless some 15th AF 1st or 82nd 38 came well to the north for engagements..........

E ~

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Chrome do you have access to the 55th fg history ?

I do know that the 55th fg was a hot shot ground attack killing outfit, 316 aerial kills, 268 on the ground.............

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The 55th flew from Nuthampstead until April '44 and then from Wormingford in Essex. In early 1945 the 55th was commanded by the legendary 'Eager El', Elwyn G Righetti, the 8th's top-scoring strafing ace with 27 ground aircraft victories.

And here's a Robert Taylor image of El and his wingman ; -

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sharp painting Martin ! top scorer in the fg was William Lewis with 8 aerial victories. a noted camo feature in the fg was a sometime added painting of an upright Stallion-Mustang on the tail-rudder, in the CY* ?, 343rd squadron.

Luftwaffe ace Ossi Romm spoke of one such instance in later 44 against Mustangs with the "horse rudder signature"

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getting back to the P-38. the 82nd fighter group flying the 38 through it's career scored 548 aerial victories. Pretty impressive I would say for a group known for many ground attack missions. In October of 44 alone the unit blew away some 49 loco's.

E

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And don't forget the P-38's that shot down Yamamoto's Betty bomber. The design of the P-38 makes it look like it would be no match for enemy fighters. It did face some issues in the beginning, and certainly when it was to be issued to England (I might be wrong, but I think one of its major problems was on takeoff because pilots needed a certain angle of attack for takeoff), but those problems were ovecome and it became what i think is one of the best fighters in the war. One of the main resons (besides its inherent advantages because it was a twin engine fighter) was the P-38's fire power. It had several machine guns and i thnk maybe a 20 mm cannon (im probably wrong, but it was some sort of cannon using an explosive shell). Because of its huge amount of forward firing guns, the P-38 was able to take down the opposing fighters. This was true in the PTO, where it was primarily used with great success.

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It would appear that in the hands of a real good pilot, it was a real monster. Particularly the J model. It's twin boom design would give it poor side view, & I have to wonder about it's roll characteristics. Armament was very good. 4 50 cal machine guns, & one 20 mil cannon. & being centrally armed made aiming easier than mid wing armed fighters. Bong had great success with it.

Erich regarding access to 55th. Um, only through Stan.Who is a friend of a friend.

Chrome not wanting to pry into this 55th fg vets affairs but he may have the 55th fg history and I would love to have the inforamtion on downing of Doras by the unit in 1945 if available. The book is through Phylanx publications if I have spelled that correctly and costs around 40.00. A worthy book for the shelves in case you are interested and wanting Stan's friend to sign a copy for u

I was looking again through the P-38 82nd fg history and their is a small pic in 1945 showing the front of a 38 with the enormous two underwing fuel tanks. How those suckas got off the ground and performed long range missions is beyond me...........thanks again to Stevin O. for this marvelous fg history book

Erich

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here is the 55th fg book for ya !

THE 55TH FIGHTER GROUP VS THE LUFTWAFFE
By John M. Gray.
This is the definitive history of the famous 8th Air Force’s 55th Fighter Group of WWII. Starting with the P-38 and eventually converting to the P-51, this group not only achieved distinguished status as escort bombers and low level tactical operations, they were also champion 8th Air Force locomotive busters and won two unit citations.

8-1/2 X 11
176 pgs.
Over 200 rare b&w photos
Hdbd
ISBN: 1580070043

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USAAF statistics for the P-40 in the ETO/MTO are as follows:
Sorties: 67,059
Enemy aircraft shot down: 481
Enemy aircraft destroyed on ground: 40
Lost in combat: 553
Tons of bombs dropped: 11,014

The P-40 was also extensively used in the same theater by the RAF and Commonwealth air forces (as the Tomahawk and Kittyhawk), but RAF/Commonwealth use is not included in these figures.

Source: The Army Air Forces in World War Two, edited by J.L. Cate and W.F. Craven; table reprinted in American Combat Planes, Third Edition by Ray Wagner

Sorry, but I don't have enough available data for that.
However I do have this quote from the well known internet poster 'robert' on the comparisons with other aircraft in the European theater.

"The P-38 was quite a bit slower than other contemporary US, British, or German fighters. The fastest fighter version of the Lightning was the P-38L, which could do 414 mph. This was at least 20-30 mph slower than the P-51B/D, P-47D, Spitfire Mk. XIV, Tempest Mk. V, Bf 109K, or Fw 190D. Even with the wing flap introduced on the P-38J-25, it couldn't turn with other fighters throughout a full turn. The flap helped in the initial turn, but then the laws of physics took over. The wing loading (weight vs. wing area) of the P-38L was 63.1 (lbs per square foot). The Spitfire Mk. XIV was 35.0. There's no way the P-38 could have stayed with a Spit or Zero through the turn. The combination of being both slower and less agile than almost any other front line fighter of the time is hardly a point in the P-38's favor. To its credit, its ceiling was excellent, at 44,000 ft., a mark bettered only by the Spitfire.

Its twin-engined configuration was perhaps its worst feature. If one engine was put out, it was a sitting duck for enemy fighters; one quote I have seen recounted how a pilot had seen only one P-38 return from the combat area on one engine during the course of his combat tour. (See "American Fighters of World War Two Volume One" by Rene Francillon, page 48)."

Thanks to 'robert' for the info

[ 02. September 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

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Yes, by late 44, the 38 would be running behind the pack in speed. In med 43, it would have been more competitive in speed. It did have great power loading with 2 motors meant it could be pushed through the turn well. It could not turn with a Zero or Spit. But according to Stan it could with 109's.

In Eric Brown's book, Duels in the sky, Brown mentioned that a Hellcat would be a good fight for a D-9, but that he had no doubt whatsoever that a Corsair could not beat a 190 in combat. So that is another reason I would go with Hellcat as 2nd best.

Erich, I would be happy to see if I can hook you up with Stan. The inline engine 190 experiments began in 41 with DB motors. Someday I'll hopefully get a grip on all the different Jumo motor designations,A-1, E, EB, F, F-1, & I think there was C jumo as well. kinda confusing.


& remember, before having sex with a model,
make sure the glue is dry 1st. words of wisdom.

Chrome would love to chat with a P-38 vet. Hve only chattd with a 1st fg vet and he is a great guy.

by the way it is worthy of note that the 82n fg was really tasked with ground attack wrok in late 44 till wr's end as noted..........

6 Nov. 44, 1 Bf 109 damaged
12 Nov. 44 1 Me 262 damaged, rather doubtful
15 December 44 2 Me 262's damaged, rather doubtful
8 February 45 1 Me 262 damaged
21 March 45 1 Fw 190 destroyed
22 march 45 1 Bf 109 and 1 Fw 190 destroyed
8 April 45 1` Bf 109 damaged

I am rather doubtful about the Nov. anad Dec. 44 claims of Me 262 damged as the 82nd would haev had to fly almost to the German Dutch border to taek on Me 262's of kommando Nowotny and I really do not think this feasible from south in Italy

well my two cents

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Stan seems to be a nice guy, so I'll let you know soon as I hear back. Meanwhile, check out this 190 site, http://FW190.hobbyvista.com/indexhtml it has some 55th data - stories. Tried to paste it, but couldn't get it through. Steve.

Chrome the link does not work, but no matter as I know this site well and the gent has some of my information including Rüdels surrender which materials I gave to friend Gordon Permann for him to publish on this Fw 190 site. Aalso profiles of Fw 190A's done by web-master and freidn of my web-site Neil Page

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I think it should be : -

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/Index.html

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Thanx Martin. I pretty well suck at computers. Last thought on 38. It was rather big, & therefore an easier target than single engine fighters. I once read an account of a 38 making it back to base on one motor in med theater, but yes, speed would be gone.

A friend of mine who has a 38 prop in his room told me a tale of a test pilot flying a 38 upsidown, 6 ft off the deck on one motor. Don't know if thats impressive or not, he seemed impressed by it.

Is it correct that the Hellcat was the top-scoring allied fighter in WW2?

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The P38 was a great plane. I think the Corsair and Hellcat's out did it though. With the better roll rate and tighter turning.

^ yes

EDIT: don't forget that the highest scoring American ace of the war (and of all time for that matter) got his 40 kills in a P38 in the PTO.

against most single-engined fighters the P-38J/L's were just as fast and climbed as well. When the P-38 got airelon boost they could roll extremely well too(at least at higher speeds) and at low speeds could just about turn with anything. In the ETO the P-38's problems were mainly from improperly blended fuel not the cold temeperatures for the P-38 also flew in the Aleutions and weather is worse there(and colder) then in Northern Europe ,it certainly didn't have the engine problems there as in Europe.

The P-38 was very good at lots of tasks that no other fighter could do, even after the Mustang came along. I know a guy who's dad flew P-38's in the Aleutians during the war, a smart choice for a fighter there and maybe the only choice - you could not beat the reliability of two engines nor the long legs of the P-38 over long stretches of empty ocean.

Indispensable, yes, second best, no! Maybe 3rd or 4th, 2nd going to Hellcat or Corsair like the other people say. There were too many things wrong with the P-38 that could never really be fixed. Any fighter the axis had could turn inside it, so dogfighting was problematic if you were flying one. Your best hope against fighters was to swoop down out of the sun, blast em with the 4 50's in the nose, and climb away before they knew what hit em!

If you in turn were bounced by enemy fighters you could be in alot of trouble really fast. The p-38 was heavier than almost any axis fighter so you'd think you could just dive and get away - but you couldn't do that in a P-38! There was a problem encountered by P-38's during long dives where aerodynamics were such that the pilot could NOT pull out of the dive and simply hit the ground! It took alot of crashed P-38's and dead pilots (with some calling in what was happening with the plane while on the way to meet their maker, in the hope of helping the living!) before they finally figured out the "compressibility" problem and reconfigured the 38 to make it not such a death trap for its own pilots.

An interesting problem of the P-38 was that its aerodynamic performance was severely degraded in cold skies due to higher air density which in part accounts for its much poorer performance in ETO than PTO or MTO.

The P-38 was a monster in PTO. The hotter, thinner air made much of its compressibility and maneuverability problems go away. It was much faster than the Zero, had superb range and outgunned everything the Japanese had. In the excellent Fire in the Sky one Japanese naval intelligence officer rued that the appearance of the P-38 meant the Empire irrevocably lost the war in the air. Lindberg in an authorized combat patrol flew the P-38 and shot down a zero--all he had to do, he wrote, was to turn into the Japanese and flew head to head to the zero because with the firepower of one cannon and four HMGs he would be victorious by default.

In MTO & PTO it was initially a match for the early Bf-109 and Fw-190 models. Once the 109 G and 190 D models enter production, not so much.

The P-38 late model J's and L's pretty much did away with alot of the problems the earlier models had. Dive brakes solved the compressibility problem to a large degree but even the P-47 had the same problem. A P-38L was quite capable of 440+ MPH ,a climb rate of around 4500+ FPM, and it could even dogfight!!! Several Luftwaffe pilots flying 109G's said they could usually dive then zoom back up after attacking an enemy but that didn't work against the P-38 which transitioned from level flight to climb very,very well and you certainly didn't want to get into a turning battle with it . If the US would have just interrupted production lines for a short while it could have placed the P-38K into production a real world beater IMHO.

From what I've read the P38 ETO was poor as a dog fighter & that why the RAF never used them
I think in ETO the P47 was a good fighter after the P51 but don't try & make out the P38 was better than in was