Pershing vs. Tiger?

CrazyD · #1 (**permalink**) September 1st, 2004, 06:35 PM

Looking for some info here, gents. I think I've got some of the basics of this in a couple fo my sources, but throwing it out here anyway...

I am under the impression that there was at least one engagement when a M26 Pershing fought a Tiger I- and from what I remember, the Tiger I won the battle, but then proceeded to get itself stuck in a building and had to be abandoned.

Anything?

CrazyD · #2 (**permalink**) September 1st, 2004, 07:15 PM

OK, never mind! I did some more poking around and found a nice little website that gave some good details of the engagements.

http://3ad.com/history/wwll/article.index.htm

http://3ad.com/history/wwll/article....hing.ko.1a.htm
http://3ad.com/history/wwll/article....hing.ko.1b.htm

KnightMove · #3 (**permalink**) September 1st, 2004, 08:11 PM

AFAIK the only Pershing that really got destroyed in Europe was knocked out by a Nashorn.

CrazyD · #4 (**permalink**) September 1st, 2004, 08:46 PM

The Pershing that was "knocked out" by the Tiger I was not destroyed- after repairs, it DID return to combat.

But... it WAS knocked out in combat by the Tiger. My not have been "destroyed", but the Tiger I won the battle.

Quote:

The first round hit the turret coax machinegun aperture and, penetrating into the turret, killed the Loader and Gunner.

The second round hit the muzzle brake and set off the Pershings's chambered round.

Later the loader of this Tiger 1 was captured and he confirmed that it was his tank that knocked out FIREBALL.

interesting enough... the Tiger I that knocked out the Pershing was part of s.Pz.Kp. Hummel- the same heavy tak unit that fought against the allies at Arnhem.

KnightMove · #5 (**permalink**) September 1st, 2004, 10:49 PM

Yes, but as mentioned: A Nashorn DID destroy a Pershing...

T. A. Gardner · #6 (**permalink**) September 2nd, 2004, 01:29 AM

Ok:

The Pershing saw combat with only 2 US Armored Divisions, the 3rd and the 9th. Distribution was made from the 599th Ordinance Battalion at Aachen to the two divisions as follows:
3rd: 1 tank each to D, E, H, and I Companies of the 32nd Armored Reginment and 1 tank each to companies D, E, H, and I of the 33rd Armored Regiment.

9th: 5 tanks to A Company 14th Tank Battalion, 1 tank to A Company, 2 to B Company and 2 to C Company of the 19th Armored Battalion.

3rd Armored crews finished training on the tank on 20 February 1945.
In one training demonstration Mr. "Slim" Price of the Abberdeen Proving Ground demonstrated the accuracy of the Pershing's gun by shooting German helments at 625 yards with single shots. This was part of the crew's gunnery training.

The first loss came on 25 February to 3rd Armored when the Pershing assigned to F Company 33rd Armd. Reg. was knocked out by a Tiger from about 100 yards. The first hit penetrated the turret through the coax MG port and killed both the gunner and loader. The second hit shot off the muzzle brake setting of the 90mm round in the gun and destroying the tube. The third hit glanced off the right side of the turret and knocked off the cuploa hatch which was open. The surviving crew backed away, getting the tank stuck in a pile of building debris, abandoning the tank.
This tank was nicknamed Fireball . This tank was repaired, the 90mm being replaced from one on an M 36 returning to service on 4 March 45.
One tank of the 14th Armored Battalion A Company lost one Pershing when it was struck by heavy artillery fire on 1 March 45. This tank was subsequently repaired and returned to service on 7 March.
Those are the only two losses, well sort of anyway, of Pershings in the ETO. So, one did get knocked out by a Tiger (which was subsequently destroyed in the action by other tanks present) and one by artillery fire. None got knocked out by a Nashorn, nor from the accounts I've read were any Nashorns encountered by Pershings.

See United States Tanks in World War II, George Forty and Pershing, a History of the Medium Tank T20 Series, Richard P. Hunnicutt

CrazyD · #7 (**permalink**) September 2nd, 2004, 05:27 PM

Hmmmm... now this is slightly confusing. The 3ad little website I found clearly states that one of the Pershings WAS knocked out by a Nashorn.
http://3ad.com/history/wwll/article....hing.ko.2a.htm
Has a couple photos of the ko'ed tank, and-

Quote:

3rd Armored T-26E3 Pershing, serial number 25, registration number 30119835, was assigned to Company H, 3rd Battalion, 33rd Armored Regiment, Taskforce Lovelady, Combat Command B.

Pershing number 25 was knocked out on 6Mar45 from the range of 300 yards by a self-propelled German Nashorn tank destroyer during the fighting in the town of Niehl, Germany north of Cologne. The Nashorn hit Pershing number 25 with its 88mm gun on the lower left front. The armor-piercing round penetrated the armor and took a path between the driver's legs and under the turret where it started a fire. The whole crew was able to bail out before the fire set off the ammo stowed under the turret.

Pershing number 25 suffered a completely burned out turret as a result and it was determined that it would take too long to repair. So the tank was cannibalized for parts and became the only total Pershing loss in WWII of the original shipment of 20 tanks.

Sources listed-
Research Sources:
After The Battle magazine, issue #104
Pershing: A History Of The Medium Tank T-20 Series by Hunnicut.
Spearhead In The West published by the 3rd Armored Division, 1945
M-26/M-46 Pershing Tank 1943-1953 by Zaloga

This info is from the "official" website of the Third Armored Division...

T. A. Gardner · #8 (**permalink**) September 3rd, 2004, 03:58 AM

I stand corrected. Three were knocked out and one by a Nashorn.

CrazyD · #9 (**permalink**) September 3rd, 2004, 02:48 PM

TA, only luck that I found that website!

It is a neat one tho... very nice work with providing a few photos of each of the Pershings in question. Very nicely done!

Neat stories, too.

They've also got one article "coming soon" on the "Super Pershing".. and the little bit that's there now makes the clear suggestion that the one (?) Super Pershing that did make it to the ETO actually saw far more action than has been thought.

Definetely gonna have to keep watching that one... that woudl be some damn interesting info, I bet!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Stefan · #10 (**permalink**) September 3rd, 2004, 04:34 PM

Interesting, I have often wondered how some of the VERY late war allied tanks would have done against some of the German beasties. I mean what about a Centurion Vs. a Tiger? Tiger 2? How about a JS2 or even JS 3? Very interesting to think about.

T. A. Gardner · #11 (**permalink**) September 3rd, 2004, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CrazyD:
TA, only luck that I found that website!

It is a neat one tho... very nice work with providing a few photos of each of the Pershings in question. Very nicely done!

Neat stories, too.

They've also got one article "coming soon" on the "Super Pershing".. and the little bit that's there now makes the clear suggestion that the one (?) Super Pershing that did make it to the ETO actually saw far more action than has been thought.

Definetely gonna have to keep watching that one... that woudl be some damn interesting info, I bet!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Only one "Super Pershing" was actually built for the ETO and saw service there (albeit without engaging anything of significance). Don't have the particulars right off. Will see if I can post those later.....