Axis

Members: 5,018
Threads: 16,447
Posts: 204,587
Online: 183

Newest Member:
jonjamg

 
 
 
Go Back   World War II Forums > General Discussion > Weapons in WWII
Register FAQ Gallery Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Weapons in WWII Discussion about the weapons and war machines created during World War Two

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old January 4th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: usa
Posts: 14
nastle2000 is an unknown quantity at this point
Post

hello,
can anyone tell what was the role of panzer II in panzer divisions after 1940 apart from recon.Even the weakest french tanks carried a 37mm gun,how did the PzII handled the lighter soviet tanks like BT-7 and T-26? Was the 20mm gun able to penetrate 15-20mm thick armor of the russian light tanks?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old January 4th, 2005, 10:02 PM
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
WW2F Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: U. S.
Posts: 3,193
T. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really nice
Post

In 1940 the Pz II was still in use as a battle tank. Its 20mm gun could penetrate up to 35mm of armor at short range. The cannon was an automatic, although this feature often failed in combat reducing it to semi-automatic fire.
The cannon was capable of taking on most light tanks of the period and could be effective against most tanks from the flank or rear.
The Pz II was certainly capable of taking on French light tanks like the AMR or Soviet pre-war designs like the T-26 or BT-7.
One big advantage it had in taking on these vehicles is that its crew was more efficently laid out, that the vehicle commander had a cuploa and that plenty of vision devices were provided. Both the French and Soviet vehicles had to fight buttoned up; the French due to the two man crews and single man turrets, the Soviets due to making the vehicle commander the gunner.
It really didn't get religated to a communications and reconnissance role until 1941 - 42.
By comparison, remember the British were using what were essentially light tanks (Crusader, Stuart etc.) as their battle tanks well into 1942. The Soviets didn't introduce the T-34 as their majority vehicle until well into 1943. In 1942 they were still producing large numbers of T-60 and T-70 tanks and the typical brigade had 50% or more of these in their make-up.
The T-60 was quite comparable to the Pz II in terms of armor and firepower, although it was severly handicapped by a two man crew and the lack of almost no vision devices making it quite inferior in actual use.
__________________
Truth is stranger than bullshit!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old January 4th, 2005, 11:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: usa
Posts: 14
nastle2000 is an unknown quantity at this point
Post

thanks T.A.
i think the germans had around 700 Pz II at the time of barbarossa.It seems it was pretty useful against soviet light tanks after all since most of them had armor much less than 35mm.Probably that is why the germans persisted with the PzII rather than incorporating the captured french tanks in the panzer divisions.Its good to know that the Pz II was not totally useless against other tanks!
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old January 5th, 2005, 09:57 PM
FramerT's Avatar
WW2F Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,565
FramerT has a spectacular aura aboutFramerT has a spectacular aura about
Cool

I thought the Germans used French and Czech tanks in Barbarossa. Modified ones,anyway.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old January 5th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: usa
Posts: 14
nastle2000 is an unknown quantity at this point
Post

Yes the germans did use a lot of modified czech tanks in russia as they had in france earlier,they were also incorporated them in the panzer divisions.The french tanks were used too but my guess is they were for infantry support and anti-partison duties(i am not an expert!).Probably the two man crew,poor range,slow speed and no radios contributed to this decision.Although i think S-35 and Char B-1bis could have been used in panzer divisions.....??some were also converted to flamethrower tanks.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old January 5th, 2005, 11:44 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 198
Major Destruction is an unknown quantity at this point
Post

Take a look at the numbers.
In the Poland Campaign of September 1939 the Panzer armies fielded
1445 Panzer 1
1223 Panzer II
These were the tanks that today would be called "main battle tanks", clearly by virtue of numbers

There were also 98 Panzer III and 211 Panzer IV but many if not most of these were experimental models that probably never made it to the front. There were also 200 - odd Czech tanks.

These numbers are a far cry from what Guderian had asked or hoped for. He wanted 22 PzIII in each light company and 22 PzIV in each heavy company but neither the mark III or mark IV panzers were put into mass production until after September - after the Poland campaign had ended.

When we think of mass production we think maybe of a Henry Ford manufacturing plant with a new car rolling off the end of the production line every few minutes but German tank manufacturing was entrusted to companies that had built steam locomotives; companies that were used to a production rate of 1 per week or less.

By the time of the France Campaign there were only 344 Panzer III's ready for action. That amounted to about 250 built between October 1939 and June 1940 or about 10 tanks per week! This is hardly mass production!

As proposed in 1935, the Mark III tank would have been one of the best tanks in 1940. With a 250 HP engine and weighing 15 tons it would be armed with a 50mm gun. It entered service 4-5 tons heavier (mainly due to the heavier 320HP engine and the puny 37mm doorknocker gun. So the state-of-the-art German panzer of 1940 was overweight, underpowered and undergunned and had insufficient armour to stop the standard AT gun carried by tanks of the UK or USSR. Those French tanks looked mighty good in comparison.

Add to this the PzIV production of less than 100 units between September 1939 and June 1940 which was barely enough to cover losses suffered in the Poland campaign.

In May 1940 the Mark II panzer was unlikely to be considered anything less than obsolete as a MBT. It certainly had no hope in combat against a Matilda, for example. By June 1941 it clearly had little value on the battlefield yet by this time there were still 746 PzII's in service in front line Panzer Divisions. Why? German industry was still producing fewer than 80 Mark III's per month. This rate of production did not permit for Divisions to be completely rid of those old obsolete armoured machine gun carriers otherwise known to the world as tanks.
__________________
If dogs don't go to heaven, I'd like to go where they go.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old January 6th, 2005, 01:36 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: usa
Posts: 14
nastle2000 is an unknown quantity at this point
Post

Its true that the german industry was not able to produce the medium tanks in numbers before the fall of france.This fact alone makes the german victory over france seem even more incredible!yet i still think the PZ II had some use against the lighter russian tanks (at least in the early stages of barbarossa) their thin armour made them vulnerable to even the 20mm shells.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old January 6th, 2005, 10:52 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 273
Tony Williams has a spectacular aura aboutTony Williams has a spectacular aura about
Post

The Germans also provided better ammunition for the 20mm guns. This is an extract from my book 'Rapid Fire: The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces':

"The Germans used the KwK 30 and 38, closely related to the FlaK 30 and 38 AA guns and using the same ammunition. Armour penetration was quoted as 31mm/100m/60° and 25mm/300m/60° for AP-T ammunition, increased to 49mm and 37mm respectively with PzGr40 Hartkernmunition."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum
__________________
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old January 6th, 2005, 05:01 PM
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
WW2F Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: U. S.
Posts: 3,193
T. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really niceT. A. Gardner is just really nice
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Major Destruction:

There were also 98 Panzer III and 211 Panzer IV but many if not most of these were experimental models that probably never made it to the front. There were also 200 - odd Czech tanks.

These numbers are a far cry from what Guderian had asked or hoped for. He wanted 22 PzIII in each light company and 22 PzIV in each heavy company but neither the mark III or mark IV panzers were put into mass production until after September - after the Poland campaign had ended.

When we think of mass production we think maybe of a Henry Ford manufacturing plant with a new car rolling off the end of the production line every few minutes but German tank manufacturing was entrusted to companies that had built steam locomotives; companies that were used to a production rate of 1 per week or less.

By the time of the France Campaign there were only 344 Panzer III's ready for action. That amounted to about 250 built between October 1939 and June 1940 or about 10 tanks per week! This is hardly mass production!

As proposed in 1935, the Mark III tank would have been one of the best tanks in 1940. With a 250 HP engine and weighing 15 tons it would be armed with a 50mm gun. It entered service 4-5 tons heavier (mainly due to the heavier 320HP engine and the puny 37mm doorknocker gun. So the state-of-the-art German panzer of 1940 was overweight, underpowered and undergunned and had insufficient armour to stop the standard AT gun carried by tanks of the UK or USSR. Those French tanks looked mighty good in comparison.

Add to this the PzIV production of less than 100 units between September 1939 and June 1940 which was barely enough to cover losses suffered in the Poland campaign.

In May 1940 the Mark II panzer was unlikely to be considered anything less than obsolete as a MBT. It certainly had no hope in combat against a Matilda, for example. By June 1941 it clearly had little value on the battlefield yet by this time there were still 746 PzII's in service in front line Panzer Divisions. Why? German industry was still producing fewer than 80 Mark III's per month. This rate of production did not permit for Divisions to be completely rid of those old obsolete armoured machine gun carriers otherwise known to the world as tanks.
The German armor manufacturing industry, like much of their heavy industry in general, was still dominated by very strong labor unions that demanded that hand work by highly skilled journeymen remain the primary system of production. This was at the heart of the low production rates the Germans were experiancing prior to and early in the war. Combined with a reluctance by the government to go to more shifts (up through 1942 most industry remained in single shift or at most 2 shift production) it was inevidable that low rates of productivity would result.
In addition, high standards of peacetime workmanship were retained in the manufacture of most military items. This gave German tanks a very high level of quality in workmanship but added alot of labor hours unnecessarily to production time.

As for the Pz II's utility, as I stated earlier, it was a much better vehicle in terms of crew efficency and interoperability within the platoon and company orgainzation than anything the French fielded. The French use of the one-man turret, lack of radios in many vehicles and, poor use of vision devices more than offsets any advantage they may have had in armor and gun power.

Likewise, the Soviets were primarily equipped with vehicles little better in armor or gun power to that of the Pz II. As I noted also, the Soviets remained in the same boat with the French in terms of crew layout, radios and, visibility. And, like them, the Soviet vehicles often blundered about the battlefield looking for a place to explode and burn as a result.

With the British, true the Matilda II was singularly a dangerous and hard to kill opponet in 1940 - 41 but, the bulk of British armor at the time were not these vehicles but rather such highly vulnerable and unreliable vehicles as the Mk VI light tank or A-13 cruiser.
The former was armed with machine guns (or in some models a 15mm BESA HMG) while the latter had a 2 pdr. Neither had more than 25 - 30 mm of armor anywhere and in most locations much less. Thus, the Pz II remained viable as a combat vehicle against such tanks.
Would the Germans have liked better tanks across the board? Certainly. But, the Pz II wasn't much worse than much of what opposed it through the end of 1941. One must remember that the quality of a tank is more than just the statistics of gun, armor and, automotive performance. This is too often forgotten. Against the opponets it faced through 1941, the Pz II stacks up as sufficently capable to fight most of them on a reasonable basis.
__________________
Truth is stranger than bullshit!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Google
 

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5
Copyright © 2000 - 2007, the World War II Network, all rights reserved.Ad Management by RedTyger

Allies