In "Hitler's Jet," it is stated:

"Officially, on 14 October 1947 Captain Charles F. Yeager, USAAF, was the first man through the sound barrier flying the Bell X-1 but there have been claims, apparently not much disputed by the Americans, that a Luftwaffe-flown Me 262 achieved the distinction first. The statement by Kurt Wendel appears to be a non-controversial way of making the claim immediately postwar. A computer-based analysis carried out in 1999 at the Munich Technical University showed that the Me 262 could exceed Mach 1. The criteria involved commencing a descent with a maximum dive angle of between 40 to 70 degrees from above 30,000 feet."

So, maybe Hans Guido Mutke did it after all!
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...y/q0198c.shtml

The Bell X-1 was the first plane able to break the sound barrier in *horizontal* flight. Even Big Boy P-47 (who else ) was able to go transsonic in a dive (Juggy Power!). I think the Hawker Tempest was able, as well.

As for the Schwalbe, in a dive quite possible, horizontal I don't know!

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Very unlikely. First, there is the problem of the aerodynamics of the aircraft itself. It is very difficult for an aircraft not designed to the area rule to achieve supersonic speeds. The 262 was not even close to this having its widest cross section at the wings and fuselage joint about half way down the length of the aircraft. This would have resulted in blanking the small (by jet standards) rudder resulting in a loss of control directionally in a supersonic condition.
Second, with plain inlets on the engines it is very likely that both would have suffered compressor stalls as a pressure front from the supersonic shock wave built up in front of them.
The possibility that a Me 163 might have is far more likely.

Juggy & Tempest trannsonic eh? never heard that. got a site?

The nearest a prop plane has ever got to breaking the sound barrier is a Spitfire flown by a RAF test pilot, reaching 0.89 mach, its impossible for a prop plane to go trannsonic.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Not true. It is possible for a propeller driven aircraft to break the sound barrier....weird, but possible!

Weirdness of the 50's

According to the link, it 'never approached supersonic speed'. Am I missing something here ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

No, I read that in one of those funny things called books. Can't tell you which one for now, got cases and cases of 'em

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My understanding is that the confusion as to whether the Germans did or did not break the sound barrier is found in the accuracy of their air speed indicators. I have heard they were wildly inaccurate at max speeds. A bit like the accuracy of the so called 'petrol guage' in my car. i.e what said Mach 1 on the dial was not in fact mach 1.

A very warm welcome to these forums, CQBDent ! Members from Australia always welcome here....

That must be some car you've got - Mach 1 ! I know you've got some quick cars down there, but.....



( Only kidding ! )

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

martin why pick on HRT (holden Dealer Team)

sorry sore point Fords are spending a large amount of Money trying to beat holdens (vauxauls)

to cqb Dent dont you know know the diference between a plane and a car

lol!...um yes ...although in NZ one can easily confuse a speed boat and a sports car. Have a Discovery channel video of 'the other 163 test pilot' talking about the Me163 which when doing a speed run approached Mach 1 and then went out of control ...the motor cut out and Dittmar regained control. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Maybe 'mythbusters' needs to confirm or deny if the Me262 did break the sound barrier or not...certainly would be an entertaining analysis. I love the 262 and the comment that was made about it"looks fast standing still"

Sorry Greg - on the spur of the moment Holden was the only typically Australian marque I could think of ! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

CQBD - quite a few of us here on the forum are big 262 fans so any discussions as to its merits/demerits are most welcome [img]graemlins/salute.gif[/img]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Messerschmitt also conducted a series of carefully controlled flight tests with the series production Me 262. In these dive tests, it was established that the Me 262 was out of control in a dive at Mach 0.86, and that higher Mach numbers would lead to a nose-down trim that could not be countered by the pilot. The resulting steepening of the dive would lead to even higher speeds and disintegration of the airframe due to excessive negative g loads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

The HG series of Me 262 derivatives was estimated to be capable of reaching transonic Mach numbers in level flight, with the top speed of the HG III being projected as Mach 0.96 at 6 km altitude. Despite the necessity to gain experience in high-speed flight for the HG II and III designs, Messerschmitt undertook no attempts to exceed the Mach 0.86 limit for the Me 262.

The Me 262 HG III:

http://www.luft46.com/gmart/gm262.html

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The Me-262 was noted for its inability to pull out of a high speed dive. Several inexperienced pilots lost their lives when going into a pursuit dive and the controls would fail to respond. This was a problem for any mach+ aircraft until they went with redesigned tails that moved as a single unit and not with flaps.

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Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

The first aircraft through the sound barrier in horizontal flight was the Lippisch P13 ramjet fighter. The US national archives have released details of this aircraft and its testing, but only to the end of 1944. There is declassified Polish material indicating that the Luftwaffe successfully tested the fighter to speeds of 2000 km/hr in 1945.

As far as I can tell from a number of various sources, the P13 never proceeded beyond windtunnel testing. Yes, the testing showed it could theoretically fly faster than sound. But, the problem in going from design to reality was not overcome before the war ended and no actual aircraft of this type flew. If anything, it probably would not have worked using the ramjet in any case. As post war testing and actual experience with ramjets has shown they work best in hypersonic regions well above mach 2, like mach 4+.
As for getting the P13 to speed to even try and ignite the ramjet, a rocket booster was to be used. This too never proceeded beyond design stage. So, exactly when did the P13 actually get built and flown?

Will provide tomorrow material on which statement was based.

T A GARDNER

The problem with your reply is that once again it highlights how unreliable is technical information provided by US sources postwar. Not wishing to give offence, but I have to say it: in my experience as a translator any Nazi internal technical document, particularly if supported postwar by a non-US aligned independent authority such as Poland, must be allowed more credence than a postwar US document, at least until such time as the contrary is proved.

I remember being warned by a publisher - in the case of doubt, always go back to the original documentation. From Mr Gardner and the sources below, we must draw the inference that either American intelligence was lying in 1945/46, or the documents upon which Mr Gardner relies are lying. We cannot have it both ways. Assuming that the original intelligence reports are honest, the original evidence is contained in these four references:

(102) W.Kozakiewicz et al, Bron Rakietowa, publ. Glowny Instytut Mechaniki, 1951 (classified until late 1990s)

(109) "Aerodynamics of rockets and ramjet research and development work at Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt Hermann Goering, Volkenrode": CIOS Report Item Nos 4 and 6, File No. XXVII-67 (1946). CIOS=Combined Intelligence Objectives Service.

(118) "Survey of German Ramjet Developments" CIOS Final Report, item No.6 File No. XXX-81.

(119) NARA/US Strategic Air Forces in Europe - Air Intelligence Summary No. 74 (8.Apr.1946).


"The American documents contain clear information about airborne trials(102)."

"...Professor Lippisch designed an aircraft resembling a bird's wing with ramjet propulsion. The prototype had to be modified continuously. The flying wind was to have a basic speed of 2500 kms/hr....to enable the aircraft to reach an adequate speed necessary to start the ramjet, solid propellant rockets were used....the speed was realized by the use of ATO rockets, the airflow heating the coal for more thrust. The hot gases flowed out through the narrow nozzles at the trailing edge. This solution enabled the thrust to be maintained for 45 minutes. In the final months of the war the propulsion effectiveness was doubled by injection of liquid fuel above the coal....." The last sentence means that the aircraft flew.

"The Lippisch P-13b was described in detail by the American analysts(19). Their drawings show little diference to the trapezoid version, also illustrated. Since the report mentioned at least two similar versions, it can be assumed that the differences are minor.

"In the American reports it was stated that the assembly was realized by various facilities of the LFW (Luftfahrtforschung Wien):
(i) aerodynamic tunnel at Tülln near Vienna
(ii) most elements were built at LFW Wiesenfeld
(iii) final assembly LFW Ramsau"

(iii) above means that the aircraft proceded beyond the wind-tunnel and was actually constructed.

"The American reports provide information about the fuel (described). The American source of information was cut off in early January 1945 when the prototype P-13b was ready for its first flight. Due to the fact that the Germans expected to achieve the magic speed of 2440 kms/hr, the Americans stated that there were many volunteers to make these historic flights."

WHY HAS THE UNITED STATES CONCEALED THE FURTHER PROGRESS OF THE LIPPISCH P-13B AFTER JANAURY 1945?

"Fortunately, the "gap" in the American documentation is filled by the 1951 Polish secret publication (102) (by the way the best analysis on German rocket weaponry I have ever read, and at the same time it is an official publication of the teams researching the German technology - almost 1000 pages - author's comment)."

"Take-off of the flying wing used ATO rockets from an oblique launcher...(describes device)...the thrust depended only on the temperature in the combustion chamber and aircraft speed....during the last months before the capitulation, it passed all its comprehensive trials. To double endurance, liquid paraffin was injected into the coals."


Either all this is in the Polish imagination, and the documents are falsified, or Mr Gardner is deceived by the US authorities upon whom he relies. I rather think the latter. The Freedom of Information Act in the United States exists so that investigators may discover "missing" areas of documentation "accidentally overlooked" by US agencies, which in this case include the last four months of P-13b trials before the capitulation.

So was this kept secret all the time?