The ISU 152 fires a 109 lb AP shot and normally carried about a half dozen rounds on board. With a much lower muzzle velocity it would be lobbing these into targets at 2000 yards or more.
The JadgTiger, for all its flaws, has a vicious gun. Essentially, this is the same gun a naval destroyer would have mounted. It is a high velocity piece with a fairly flat trajectory to about 5,000 yards. This means out to about 3,000 to 4,000 yards a JadgTiger has a pretty good probability of a first round hit compared to the ISU 152.
Of course, the latter was designed first as a self-propelled artillery piece and second as a tank destroyer.

But the JSU-152 will still win.....cos there would be more of them.
1941 was Hitler's most stupidest year-war with Russia and America.

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Give the man a break, he could paint a room double this size in one afternoon, two coats!

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I love that movie

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

What movie?

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Service

Za was quoting "The Producers"

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Wikipedia Ho!

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1. Tiger - undisputed greatest tank killer in history
2. Panther
3. T-34
4. JS2
5. JS1
6. Sherman Firefly
7. KV 1
8. KV 2
9. Sherman and Mark IV tie (if production value were included these would rate higher but I'm rating combat value)
10. Mark III

I love it when different types are compared to eachother . Ever notice that some of the the lists usually progress from early war to late war? Why not have a list for each type. Super heavy,Heavy,Medium,Light?

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

you do realize that the question is about what would happen if they were to face off one on one...

Furthermore, this battle would depend a lot on how the two were to come upon each other. First off all, the Jagtiger's gun had a much higher velocity than the SU-152's and much more amour percing capablilities (plus the SU-152 had reletivily weak armour anyway). So the Jagdtiger would have an advantage at long range. But if the SU-152 was to come up from the side or back at a closer range, it would easily have been able to pentrate the Jagdtiger's weaker 80mm side amour if it was to hit it. I honestly don't think that the fact that the SU-152 has a lower profile would have done much to effect the battle. And if they were to come face to face it could just depend on who gets the first shot. Although I don't think the 152mm would have been able to penetrate the 250mm of frontal superstructure amour, it still could have probably gotten through the lower weaker parts of the hull. And if the Jagdtiger was to hit the SU-152 then it would just complety anihillate it.

Even that would be tricky since tanks which were considered heavy at the start of the war could be considered medium or even light by the end of it.

I would say the vast majority of armor engagements in WW2 (well, at least a sizeable fraction of them) would be determined by this- starting position and first shot, as opposed to the vehicles themselves. Whoever had the element of suprise, whoever got the first shot- and first hit- would have a vastly better chance of winning.

One other item on the JagdTiger vs. SU-152: German vehicles had VASTLY better optics than their russian counterparts, so a first shot hit would be far more likely there.

I don't have a list of the 10 best tanks offhand, I'd need to think about that one a bit more...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Snichzen Shnousen Wousen.

I give up. You win.
I still dislike the JT though...

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Don't go away so soon Joe, ask how many JTs were produced and how many were able to effectively enter combat, and how many JSU-152 were made!*

* an average of 100 per MONTH plus as many JSU-122, against 80 something grand total for the JT, so that's not really much more than a footnote after all, or is it?

Achtung Panzer! - Jagdtiger
The Russian Battlefield

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And by the time the Jagdtigers entered into service, German resources for both fuel and maintenance were stretched to the point of breaking. I would imagine the cases where these beasts had a significant battlefield impact were few and far between.

In an abstract, theoretical 1-on-1, yeah, A JgdTiger would be great if had the elements of suprise and some amount of mobility.

Practical purposes? An interesting footnote.

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Thats is true also.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

That's where I wanted to reach. Another pretty vehicle for modellers, but built in such low numbers (like the Ferdinand) and entailing so many problems that they could be more of a liability than an asset.

Footnotes, curiosities.

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Allthough I'm a big fan of German hardware. In particular the Panther tank. IMO the Sherman tank despite some of it's so called flaws (protection/firepower/profile), Was a tank built for the needs of the time and was a true war winner for the allies. Easy to build and quickly field repair. Interchangable parts to one another despite what version it was allowed field mantenance workers to quickly canibalize from other Shermans and throw out the same Sherman the Germans or Japanese had destroyed only hours or days before. Remember WWII was a war of attricion. And no tank provided for that better than the Sherman. The Sherman was also a very versitile platform being armed in several different ways. 75mm/76mm/105mm/17pdr and even the 90mm mounted on a Sherman chassis with an M36 TD turret. The latest version M4A3E8 had new HVSS wide track suspension system and 76mm gun. It was a fine overall tank all around. And lets not forget how the Sherman platform could still be made to support at very difficult tank to knock out. Anyone out there ever heard of the M4A3E2 Jumbo Assault tank ?. Frontally and pretty much from any angle of attack, It was immune to the German 88mm FlaK,88mm L/56,75mm L/70,75mm L/48 calibers guns. Only if these guns fired heavily rationed and in short supply APCR ammunition would they have any hopes of penetrating a Jumbo frontally. And that still had to be a close range even then. Only the German Pak 43 88mm at close range firing standard ammo or medium range firing APCR shot had any real chance against an M4A3E2 frontally. Only the German King Tiger provided better overall frontal protection and that wasn't by a whole lot either. The M4A3E2 had turret armor thickness of 152mm on it's front, side and rear. The turret front was also further protected by a large 178mm thick gun mantlet. Lets just say the M4A3E2 easily provided the best turret protection of any tank of WWII. The front upper hull protection was 102mm thick angled at 47 degrees and the transmission cover was rounded and at 140mm thickness and gradually reduced to a minumum thickness of 114.5mm where the transmission cover attached to the upper hull. The transmision cover was angled at 47 degrees at the upper and 56 degrees at the lower side. Upper side armor was increased to 75mm thickness at 0 degree angle. Be it a limited production Sherman. This is only an example of what the Sherman platform was capable of. Later versions of the M4A3E2 tank (over 100) had their 75mm guns replaced with 76mm guns. This model coupled with that gun and that kind of armor was more that a match for any Tiger I or Panther it might chance run into. If it hadn't been for the US Army pushing so hard to quickly get the Pershing tank fielded, It was planned to make M4A3E2 Jumbo's standard pruduction tanks with HVSS track/suspension systems and armed with 76mm guns. Just imagine hordes of these milling about the battlefield.

Well, there weren't "hordes of these milling about the battlefield", 250 in total I think, but nice try for a guy calling himself Panther II

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Come on Za Rodinu, Didn't you read my post properly?? ... hahaha

I never said there were hordes of M4A3E2's milling about the battlefield. As said just "imagine" hordes of them. Yes there were only 254 of this Sherman type produced. I mentioned the M4A3E2 Sherman to simply show what the Sherman platform was capable of. Most folks seem to usually image the Sherman as an instant firebomb once it gets hit. But the fact is, With the M4A3E2 what you got was just exactly the opposite of that. This was a tank that was hard as hell for German AT guns and tanks to deal with.

This showed the Sherman chassis was able to handle at least 42 tons. And at 42 tons, the M4A3E2 easily provided better overall protection than any other tank in that weight class. Alot of weight carried or by the German Panther and Tiger models were wasted if one wants to say that, Becouse of their suspension designs and tracks. Not so with a Sherman VSS or HVSS suspension set up.

An even match would be more appropriate than "more than a match". Jumbo sherman had a higher silouette, a gun that was inferior to the Panther's gun, and optics that were inferior to the Germans.

The Jumbo was a fine tank, but all this "easily better than" is a far too generous assessment.

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Was poring over The Combat History of German Heavy Anti Tank Unit 653 for more tidbits on the mechanical issues with the Jagdtiger. Some interesting info that really shines the light on the massive problems the vehicle had.
Engines and Drive trains were downright horrible. Severly, SEVERLY underpowered. And one of the interesting things mentioned is the maintenance availability. Because the Jadgtigers were so huge and required such specialized support teams, there was a far greater problem with being able to repair breakdowns than other German tanks. Very few (if any?) parts were shared with other vehicles, hence spare parts were in very short supply. Massive weight made cranes a requirement for most any repairs.
And because there were so few Jagdtigers in service in so few units, there apparently were also rarely enough specialized service personnel available. And if the properly trained people weren't "busy" at any given time, it was still likely that they wouldn't be in the same areas as the Jagdtigers. So ad-hoc repairs were often needed, which made the already unreliable JgdTigers even more succeptible to breakdown.

All this generated a lack of confidence in the vehicles, leading to even further diminished battlefield effectiveness.

Vicious circle, there.

And think of how many Hetzers/JgdPzr IVs/Stugs could have been manufactured for the same resources/trouble.

I'll see if I can isolate some of the better quotes when I've got more time tomorrow.

(And sorry for the JagdTiger tangent, but figured it's interesting and at least related to the original thread idea! )

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Panther II: sorry for my hasty reading, I see what you mean

Crazy D: I agree as well, better to apply the resources in more cost-effective systems. Formally I'd leave the Hetzer out, but considering it was so cheap it had be effective, even if only able to be crewed by Hitlerjunge

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Actually the Panther was taller by about a foot (30 cm).

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Best Regards,
JW

After reading all about the Jagdtiger's reliability (or lack thereof) I'm astonished as to how Germany decided to waste resources in their production.

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