He was using the St. Petersburg back streets accent

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OOOOHHHHH understood!!!!!!

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

That said, they did call it the 'grave for 5 brothers' did they not (I may be getting confused here). That said, I've heard a fair few accounts of troops who didn't even know the vehicle was American made.

The short service life of the T34 is an interesting issue, but compare it to the life expectancy of a new tank crew...

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Their country was invaded, pretty good tank,the T-34 considering. Mass production, just like the Sherman.
Although the US had time on it's side to come up with a decent tank.

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Though the T34 was designed before the war was it not?

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Well, the A-20 experimental tank was ready in 1939 but the design goes back to the BT series.

See here in www.battlefield.ru and go to Tank Development > Medium Tanks > T-34 Prototypes

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There is an ass in my avatar.

Just. Many of the concepts were built up pre-war and the work on the a-20, 32 etc began in 1937 the first 2 actual prototypes were ready in january 1940 and the first production models rolled out in September. Given the designation '34' to commemorate the decree of that year calling for military expansion.
(Stalins Armoured might, 2002)
Cheers,
Adam.

(cross-posted with Za... got distracted by an SMK )

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Yeah,so? It was better than anything the Germans fielded.

Well,except the StuG.

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Sorry Framer, what I meant was that you said the US had the time to develop the Sherman which I took to suggest the USSR didn't because of the invasion, just pointing out the design predates the invasion.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

1. T-34
2. Sherman
numbers & impact

3. Pz VI
fear factor

4. Pz IV
universal platform

5. Pz V
all around good

6. Churchill
same as Pz IV + armor

7. Pz III
mother of Marder & StuG

8. M3/5 Stewie
necessary in all armies

9. IS II
Big boy, and lots of em


10. Matilda
desert "Battleship"
worked well against Japan to

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"Yet it is eyes which blind the man,"....
"Because a man can see, he does not look."

Master Po

The war changed so fast that it is hard to pinpoint a top tank. The Sherman may have been a later model tank than the T34, but it was built to 1940 specifications before we had any real knowledge of what woulld be its role. Despite its shortcomings, the Sherman was easy to manufacture, versitile and easy to maintain, comparitively. What most fail to think about, is that it was a medium tank, in a battle against heavy tanks. By U.S. standards, even the Panther medium tank was a heavy.

Should U.S. resources have been spent on designing a new, better tanks? That was a possibility, but many felt that the resources were better spent on getting enough M4s to overwhelm the enemy forces. The Germans made the mistake of too many designs, and it was a source of grief for them.

A lot depends on how the tanks were used, and how effective their leadership and crews were. In many ways, some of the tank destroyers were close to tank designs and operation.

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Definitely a tough list to compile. I think T.A., I agree with your list overall.

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In no way do I want to flame Gardner's Thread, but I don't consider having the ability to mass produce a tank as being a "top 10" candidate.

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I think FramerT, that while production numbers shouldn't be the only factor in determining a tanks worth it is certainly a necessary factor. The Sherman was cheaper to build, maintain and repair that almost any other vehicles. This allowed the troops using the vehicle to get more active service out of their vehicles while in the field. German AFV's, while generally technically superior to the Sherman, required much more cost, machining and upkeep. What this means is that given the exact same amount of starting resources, the US had more servicable tanks for longer periods in the field. When you evaluate a tank you must evaluate the entire length of it's life. Mass production alone doesn't cut it, but when you can do more with less from the outset, I think it matters.

That said, in direct tank vs. tank combat, I'd rather be a tiger crewman than a M4 crewman, any day of the week.

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Phear der PanzerPenguin!
HellFish love teh

It´s also "funny" to think how something never meant to be used like that can help change history. Just think how far the Blitzkrieg would have gone in the west 1940 or the east 1941 without the excellent 88 AA gun....

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In some ways, the Sherman's virtues went against it. If it had been a little less effective at reliability and ease of production, it might have been replaced quicker. The numbers made the advantage. Even with only a 38% effective kill against a heavy tank, if you can get 5-1 or better numbers, you are going to have only one outcome in most cases. This is why the T-34 did so well.

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From "Death Traps"by B. Cooper.

"The M4's engine was supposed to be pulled after a 100 hours of operation."

If you have the luxury of a great maintenance group like the Ami's had, that's great.

"The Ford Motor co.,under the direction of the ordinance dept.,took the Brit Rolls Royce Merlin engine and cut it down to 8 cylinders" This was the new M4A1.
A Brit engine, just like the Mustang's.
The Brits put the 17pder in the Sherman to give it some heavy fire-power.

The Sherman was a good tank for the Pacific theater but I thought the ETO was the priority. It was a poor choice.

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I have a video from the Military channel called "Suicide Missions". It's all about the Shermans in Europe.
Belton Cooper does some talking in it (excellent book BTW) about Hedge-choppers and how he was ordered to equip 50 tanks with them by the next day (after a demonstration by the guy who thought of it).
His entire unit worked all night and completed 7. No two alike. Such are orders.
Anyway...the Pershing was started in 1942, put on hold in 43 (cause the Brass & REAs decided the Sherman could finish the war), so efforts went to improving the Sherman (bigger gun, wet ammo storage, HVSS, etc).
The Brass & REAs then changed their minds after the "Battle of the Bulge", and the Pershing was completed (with underpowered Sherman engine), and saw limited service.
Cooper speaks of recovering a few knocked out ones in his book.
If...they would have kept after the project from the start...from D-Day onward, U.S. Armored Divisions would have had 1/3 Pershings, 1/3 Shermans, and 1/3 M-5s.
Perhaps Panthers & Tigers wouldn't have run "Rough-Shod" over Alied tanks, and more young men would be alive today.
Such is the danger of REAs who have the Brass's ear.

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"Yet it is eyes which blind the man,"....
"Because a man can see, he does not look."

Master Po

Fascinating, calm, reasonable & contemporary (1946) defence of the Sherman from the 'Military review'. Found by a member of a.n. other forum:
Tank V Tank.pdf
Cheers,
adam.

(too large for the upload limit here so I've just pasted the link.)

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Have you heard that the History or the Military or the Discovery channel will be airing the refurbishing of a Panther tank this ?Tuesday? night? I do not remember the name of the program (Modern Marvels perhaps), but I believe the same show has already done one on an Israeli version of the Sherman.

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Yes I remember a fellow member from across the pond mentioning it here on the boards a few weeks back. I hoped it would air over here sometime. To my delight I saw a preview for it on the Military channel last night. I will definitely tune in for this one.

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