The Spitfire was a dream to fly, no question...but it wasn't such a dream to fly and fight at the same time. No problem for a skilled pilot, agreed - but much more of a problem for a novice.

The P-51D was highly predictable and almost 'flew itself' under many circumstances ; the Spitfire needed more care. While concentrating on the heat of battle it was very possible to 'lose it'......

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P-51D was truely the star peformer except for one little ink stain ........... the Ta 152H-1

you'll read why later in a book

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TA-152 was a beast

beast you say, please tell me your thoughts on this

actually according to JG 301 veterans the existing Fw 190A-9's and Fw 190D-9's and Bf 109G-10's were to be replaced with the TA 152H in all four of the gruppen. Had this been accomplished from the first in September of 1944, things might have been a little more dicey for the 8th and 15th AF Stang pilots

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I must admit Martin, you are the only person or source I've come across who claims this.
Every other source states that the Spitfire in the majority of its marks was a 'nice' aircraft both to fly and fight in.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

The Me 262 was a faster plane than the Ta 152 & that had no big impact on the air war so why would the Ta 152

well lets look shall we, faulty engines, bad mechanics many of the time, too fast actually to set up for attacks on bombers and even on the Mustang, too wide a turning radius made it dog fodder for P-51 pilots, flame outs of the engines occurred often, non-fuel efficient in other words no stinking long range.

JG 300 was to be in total equipped for short range combat near Berlin against US bomber formations but the LW Geschw. never saw one enter into their service

my vote goes for the Ta 152H

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Least the Me 262 was active in WW2 & not a pipe dream like a fighter Sq of Ta152
That like me say the P80 shooting star a better fighter than a P51

you're obviously not familiar with the Ta 152H in service then..........you will be in time

and the question is such what could beat out the Mustang.. ? the 262 obviously in a flat out straight shot, the US/LW veteran interviews I have made since the 1960's prove that

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but in true reality nothing was going to subdue the P-51 D, not even German jets, an Arado falls to ace Don Bryan, depicted by friend T. White.

Accordingly I put the interview I had with Don on this very site a couple of years ago, the little Fahrt of a jet made a run on the Remagen bridge and Don caught up and put the jet and his Stang through the paces.
Don is still going strong these days ..........

E

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[quote=Erich;234769]you're obviously not familiar with the Ta 152H in service then..........you will be in time

Please tell as i've only read Fw Ta 152 by Harmann, Dietmar
Capt Eric Brown in is book Wings of the Luftwaffe say The Ta 152 & the Mk 21 Spitfire where a even match

Erich please correct me if im wrong but were they not prototypes?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

It is interesting how many times it has been said that this weapon or that weapon, if only they had come out with it sooner. The fact is that the U.S. had already had their jet fighter in combat at the end of the war. New improved German planes would not have made a difference unless they came out two years earlier, and could be sustained. The Reicht was imploding long before the end of the war.

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Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

Up to the end of the war control surfaces were fabric and wood. And as I recall the prototype and several of the first production run had fabric wings.

It doesn't matter how fast the guns can fire if they only had 350 rounds each, according to you than they only had 15 seconds worth of ammo.

So the poor range of the spitfire contributed to the supply burden in France. Nice excuse for poor range. The P-51s operated from England until the end.

Bomber command switched to night bombing because of the losses that the Luftwaffe was inflicting on them. The Americans had the same problem until fighter escort for the bombers came along. Now if the pathfinder was off just a hare everyone else was off too. No one asserts that the British were more accurate than the Americans.

Me 262s were not vulnerable to the P-51 except against large numbers or when taking off and landing. This is why a squadron of fighters were assigned to patrol know 262 bases.

If the Arado had wanted to get away he could have, with a top speed of 30 over the mustang he should have been able to pull away... now if he was intent on hitting a bridge, he would have not just run away. Duty over life, quite noble.

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~ I have the interviews the Arado opened it up and Don blew him off, g back and find the thread about this chase down. I've interviewed many Mustang pilots that shot down 262's as well as 262 pilots both have said the 262 turning radius was too broad and the US pilots got within that turning circle and shot them down

I also have additional information from Germany and the jg 301 pilots on the TA 152. The H-0 was operational in January of 45 to be followed by the H-1 the latter saw action against US, RAF and Soviet targets. I would suggest Monograms offering as well as Will R. Jg 301/302 book whether in the original German or reproduced English volume from his very important aspect.

actually working on a book covering the 262's against the US P-51 groups with some very interesting sidelights from both sides, those willing to talk have been very candid offering info not found elsewhere on tactics, speed, turn, arms and ammo and for the 262 pilots elluding the enemy, for the Stang vets how close and when and where to face them off

off to work more on the jg 301 volume

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I think, somewhat like Erich, that the 152 was vasty overrated. For whatever Kurt Tank might have accomplished with it it was still heavily dependent on its MW 50 and GM systems to get that incredible performance. Given its history of being notoriously unreliable in many small ways that often crippled its performance I think on the whole it should not be a straight comparison.
Having to change the wooden flaps after every flight due to warping is not a good thing. The aileron design was such that it took several test flights to get them half way aligned right and even then they might not be where they needed to.....this when the Luftwaffe could not afford any test flying due to fuel shortages. Or, the inability of the factory to get the pressurization to work right in the cockpit, the list is long on minor deficenices that simply drug the aircraft's performance down.

The Mustang certainly had its deficiencies as well but these were far less crippling than anything the Germans faced. On the other hand, as an offensive aircraft I really doubt it could be matched by anything in the war except maybe the A6M Zero early on. And, it is offensive aircraft and offensive operations that win wars, not defensive ones.
This was the major failing of the Me 109 and for that matter the Luftwaffe as a whole throughout the war....lack of range on their aircraft.

Mustang is was great fighter, If i had to fly anything ww2 it would be my choice. Aircharts and what if aside. Pilots make the plane. Look at the Koren war China had better aircraft with the 1st migs but as soon as the U.S. came up with something close we pretty much ruled the skys with the ww2 pilots because of their skill level. the omega

Well, I have to admit that my source was a long conversation with Peter Wykeham DSO* DFC* ( and now sadly deceased ) who flew both types in combat. His actual words were :

'In a fight, if you weren't quite up to scratch, the Spitfire could bite you in the backside if you weren't careful. The Mustang was far more forgiving.....'

I remember being quite disappointed at the time ( me being much younger then ) that he wasn't more 'patriotic'......

But bear in mind that we are comparing, here. I'm not saying - and neither was Sir P - that the Spitfire was 'a load of rubbish'. But the P-51D was easier to fly. I've also read many accounts and spoken to other combat veterans - but not usually men who had combat experience of both types.

It's a little bit like comparing a Porsche 911 and Ferrari 355. No-one's going to deny that both are superb cars. But more tyro yuppies kill themselves in Porsches because the configuration of the Porsche requires a higher level of skill to get the best out of the car.

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Hello folks !

Looks like this thread finaly came alive !

As an overall observation, I want to put in that it was not intended to be a what if [insert country] had been using the [insert wunderplane] since 1932 ?

That's why I think it would be more fair to compare such very late war airplanes, which saw usage for a very short timespan and in limited numbers, like the Ta-152 or Spitfire XXI, to very late Mustang versions (can't remember the version letter – P51-H ?), or planes like the P-47 N, and not the mainstream P51 C or D.

As per Me 262, my first post was restraining the subject on piston engines, but it's always interesting to broaden the subject

@Uksubs

IMHO, we might have a winner with the Spit XIV, although I really lack extensive reference on this one (I mean detailed reference, not a top speed at a single/unknown altitude), I'd like to see a chart with top speed at different powers according to altitude, as long as climbrate at different altitudes, and turnrate at different speeds.

However, I'l take for granted that the Spit XIV was faster (to my surprise) and climbed better (no surprise here lol !) than the P51-C or D.

About maneuverability, I've got no reference on the subject – more precisely Spit XIV turnrate at given speeds, but given the better rate of climb and (most probably) the better rollrate of the Spit, I'll agree with you on the overall better maneuverability of the Spitfire.

About weapons, I also agree with you, even if the 12.7's were enough against fighters.

But still, I'd be gratefull if someone can provide detailed performances charts of the Spit XIV

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Join the C-cube now !

Just this link out on the Spitfire XIV
Comparitive Performance of Fighter Aircraft

Spitfire Mk XIV Performance
I still think the P51C/D was the best fighter of the war

The spitfire Mk21 was flying with 91sq in jan 1945
Spitfire Mk 21 Performance Testing

Check this link out !
It let you pick the planes you want to compare
Aces High Fighter Comparison

Just to reinterate the offensive fighter idea, look at the Spitfire's operations in the Pacific. For virtually the entire war the units using various Marks of Spitfire sat out the war largely unused.
The aircraft simply did not have the range to engage the enemy on most occasions. It was also often too delicate and aircraft to use from iffy frontline airfields that were unimproved. In the Pacific range was of critical importance. The Spitfire with its short range for use in Europe proved of little value in the Pacific.

That why i think the P51C/D was the best fighter of the war - it took the war to the Germans in there back yard

besides driving home to the UK, it had the range, the lightness, speed and the 6 .50's could grind any LW a/c to meat..........

my sig says it all, ace S. Wickers mount of the 364th, if you think I am pro Ta 152H I am not, it was not given the time or the energies to have the bugs worked out for obvious reasons, it was not an escort fighter like the P-51D/K, it was soley a short range high altitude romp of which it did not excel as it only flew 2-3 high missions the rest were at mid-alt range just where needed to face off any of the Soviet types which it ruled.........

had the craft been somewhat perfected then just possibly we would of read about the actions with P-51's but all we have are performance charts and some guy from England that copped my name who flew test flight comparisons but we also have some very interesting pilot accts used on the Ost/West fronts, but what could of been never was really

the P51D/K had it hands down

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