Sturmgewehr 44 - Page 4

Hufflepuff · #76 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussolini

You do have to credit it with being the worlds for Assault Rifle, from which all other assault rifles were derived. The AK improved upon some of the things the STG had. The STG by all accounts was a heavy weapon and the trend of modern weapons is to make them lighter, with higher capacity magazines.

The Germans were clearly the first to merge a rifle with a SMG (hence Assault rifle - single shot and fully automatic combined into one gun) that was both accurate at long range, fired a relatively powerful round, but could also be used in close combat.

History dictates that, after this, modern rifles were capable of similar feats.

I agree with everything you said here but it technically was not the 'first' assault rifle; the SVT-40 was labeled as an assault rifle when it went into production, and there were numerous attempts to design what we would call 'assault rifles' before the SVT.

Mussolini · #77 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 01:01 PM

From my understanding, the SVT was only a semi-automatic weapon, with a longer barrel then the STG. Basically a M-1 Garand. It might have been an attempt at an Assault Rifle, but I don't think it truly meets the criteria for one.

The STG even looks like the offspring of a Rifle + SMG. Its shorter, stockier, heavier then a rifle, but larger then an SMG...the SVT still looks like a Rifle, and doesn't (from what i know of it) have good close-range capabilities.

Hufflepuff · #78 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussolini

You do have to credit it with being the worlds for Assault Rifle, from which all other assault rifles were derived. The AK improved upon some of the things the STG had. The STG by all accounts was a heavy weapon and the trend of modern weapons is to make them lighter, with higher capacity magazines.

The Germans were clearly the first to merge a rifle with a SMG (hence Assault rifle - single shot and fully automatic combined into one gun) that was both accurate at long range, fired a relatively powerful round, but could also be used in close combat.

History dictates that, after this, modern rifles were capable of similar feats.

Agreed; sorry for the Confusion

Vince Noir · #79 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 01:36 PM

Now somewhere at home I have the summary of the MP-43 testing with Das Reich on the Eastern Front.

From what I can remember, they seem to have liked the weapon, but felt it was too heavy and over complex. It was suggested by a few of the officers who took part that the best role for the weapon would be for it to be issued to one platoon in each company and then utilise that platoon as the assault platoon... Bit of a bummer if you are in that platoon. There was also some disappointment in the selection of cartridge but I cant remember what it was... I will try and dig it out when I go home.

Hufflepuff · #80 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 01:41 PM

Here's a cool photo of an StG-44 fitted with a telescopic sight:

JCFalkenbergIII · #81 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 03:23 PM

"The first true assault rifle was probably the Italian-made Cei-Rigotti, which was developed in the 1890s and finished around 1900, at the beginning of the 20th century; it never entered military service, however. The first service assault rifle was the Russian Federov Avtomat of 1916, chambered for the Japanese Arisaka 6.5 × 50 mm rifle cartridge, which was only used in small numbers due to supply problems."

" Originally created by Amerigo Cei, an officer in the Italian army, in 1890, the Cei-Rigotti rifle was extensively modified by Rigotti in 1900, and is often regarded as the first assault rifle. Over the next few years (1903 and 1911) there were improvements to its internal functions, such as its gas operation. This is also what made the Cei-Rigotti so modern, the fact that it was the first time a gas operated action was successfully used in a rifle. The rifle also featured 6.5x52mm munition in what was probably a 25 round detachable box magazine. The system, although not actually used by any army (possibly because of unreliability), was remade in Switzerland, Russia, Austria. These variations featured 8x56mm munition (Austria) and 7,62x54mm (Russia)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cei-Rigotti
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Assault_rifle
http://www.fas.org/news/reference/probert/F3.HTM
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

As for the AK-47 ,according to Kalashnikov all he used from the German example is the 7.62 ammunition. However, the Soviets wanted a new design because they were impressed with the German weapon, so in that small respect you can say that they based the AK47 on it, but that would like saying that all future jets was based on the Me-262. They are all jets, but they aren't based on it.

Mussolini · #82 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 04:02 PM

What i was trying to say is that the effectiveness of the STG prompted the Russians etc to develop their own Assault Rifle.

The STG was really the first Assault Rifle to be produced and used widely - in an effective role - in combat that would then set a trend for post-WWII warfare.

Those other two 'Assault Rifles' really didnt demonstrate anything, nor did they see prolonged use in War or call for the creation of more Assault Rifles by other countries.

The same with the German Me...first real jet-powered fighter, and the allies did use its blueprints in developing their own (at least, took a look at what the Germans had developed and improved upon it). I am sure the technology would have made it to the skies at some point, but the german Me excelled that process as it was the first real Jet Fighter.

Hufflepuff · #83 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussolini

The same with the German Me...first real jet-powered fighter, and the allies did use its blueprints in developing their own (at least, took a look at what the Germans had developed and improved upon it). I am sure the technology would have made it to the skies at some point, but the german Me excelled that process as it was the first real Jet Fighter.

Is it true that the Germans got alot of their jet research information from the Brits? I know about an ignored scientist called Whittle who designed a jet aircraft for Gloster. Didn't the Germans use this info when they made the Messerchmitt Me-163 and Me-262? or was that the Heinkel He-178?

Stefan · #84 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussolini

Those other two 'Assault Rifles' really didnt demonstrate anything, nor did they see prolonged use in War or call for the creation of more Assault Rifles by other countries.

I have to disagree, the Avtomat was the first practical assault rifle to be adopted by the military and see front line service. It demonstrated that it was possible to build a full automatic rifle that could be easily handled by one man without turning into an LMG. Had it not been or the turmoil of the Russian civil war and the supply problems experienced by the Imperial Russian Army in WW1 it could have seen far more widespread service. It could easily be argued that weapons like the Avtomat were what set the stage for the Stg44 and the AK47.

Erich · #85 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 04:26 PM

actually the St 44 is too big but not that heavy, personally it pastes just about everything to shreds even more so in my opinion than the earlier AK-47's before newer modifications to increase firepower

Mussolini · #86 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 04:28 PM

re: Jets

I could be wrong, but I think a British Scientists developed it in the 1920's, a year or two before a German came out with his own. However, it was the Germans who first applied this 'science' to aircraft, long before the British did.

JCFalkenbergIII · #87 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hufflepuff

Is it true that the Germans got alot of their jet research information from the Brits? I know about an ignored scientist called Whittle who designed a jet aircraft for Gloster. Didn't the Germans use this info when they made the Messerchmitt Me-163 and Me-262? or was that the Heinkel He-178?

Well the Me-163 was rocket powered not jet. And the Italians had some research in it too. And the Italian CC 2 made what people thought was to be the world’s first jet powered flight in May 28, 1940. But then it was long after the war when records and documents showed that a He 178 made the first flight with a true jet engine the year before.

JCFalkenbergIII · #88 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

I have to disagree, the Avtomat was the first practical assault rifle to be adopted by the military and see front line service. It demonstrated that it was possible to build a full automatic rifle that could be easily handled by one man without turning into an LMG. Had it not been or the turmoil of the Russian civil war and the supply problems experienced by the Imperial Russian Army in WW1 it could have seen far more widespread service. It could easily be argued that weapons like the Avtomat were what set the stage for the Stg44 and the AK47.

I agree .The Stg44 can claim it was the first MASS produced "Assualt Rifle" to be issued.

~~PactOfSteel~~ · #89 (**permalink**) February 29th, 2008, 09:41 PM

Generally accepted as the world's first assault rifle, the StG44's effect on post-war arms design was wide-ranging, as evidenced by Mikhail Kalashnikov's famous AK-47, and later in the U.S. M16 and its variants. The Soviet Union was quick to adopt the assault rifle concept. The AK-47 used a similar-sized round and followed the design concept, but the AK was mechanically very different.
Sturmgewehr 44 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll admit its mechanically different but the design and concepts are very alike.

Tony Williams · #90 (**permalink**) March 2nd, 2008, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussolini

re: Jets

I could be wrong, but I think a British Scientists developed it in the 1920's, a year or two before a German came out with his own. However, it was the Germans who first applied this 'science' to aircraft, long before the British did.

Whittle produced the first workable jet engine. His design was patented internationally, and was in the public domain. The jets used in the Me 262 were axial rather than centrifugal flow, however, so certainly weren't a copy of Whittle's jet. They weren't entirely original, either: axial-flow gas turbines had been worked on in various countries, but were mainly held up by the lack of suitably heat-resistant alloys.

The first flight of a German jet was of the He 280 on 30 March 1941. The first British jet was the Gloster E28/39 (note the number 39 - it was designed to a specification produced in that year). This flew on 15 May 1941 - just six weeks later.

The first flight of a combat jet - the Me 262 -was on 18 July 1942 (earlier flights were with a prop engine in the nose), but lots of work was needed (especially to the engines) so serial production didn't start until 1944. The first experimental/test squadron was formed in April 1944, carrying out initial operational missions in August 1944. The first regular Luftwaffe Me 262 squadron was formed in January 1945 (JG7).

The Gloster Meteor was designed in 1940 (to spec F9/40) and although the first prototype was built in 1942 one didn't fly until March 1943. The first production Meteor F.1 flew in January 1944 and the first regular RAF squadron (No.616) was formed in July 1944 and went into action against V1 flying bombs at the end of that month. The Meteor therefore beat the Me 262 into regular operational service, and saw action sooner.

Sadprofessor65 · #91 (**permalink**) March 2nd, 2008, 02:04 PM

I know I am chiming in a little late here but the AK-47 is actually more closly coppied action wise and the M1 caribine. They use an almost identical firing system how ever the AK-47's version of the firing system in inverted from the way it was on the M1 caribine. But it relates much more closely then the STG44. I don't think there can be any doubt the the look and rate of fire of the STG44 had a part in the inspiration and creation of the AK-47. But system wise its closer to an M1 caribine.

Reed

T. A. Gardner · #92 (**permalink**) March 2nd, 2008, 03:55 PM

The Italian Caproni "jet" wasn't a real jet. It used a piston engine and ducted fan for propulsion making it essentially a variant of a propeller driven aircraft.

JCFalkenbergIII · #93 (**permalink**) March 2nd, 2008, 04:03 PM

"Well the Me-163 was rocket powered not jet. And the Italians had some research in it too. And the Italian CC 2 made what people thought was to be the world’s first jet powered flight in May 28, 1940. But then it was long after the war when records and documents showed that a He 178 made the first flight with a true jet engine the year before."

Thats why I said people THOUGHT it was.

LOL