Flying Rams and Air to Air Ramming - Page 2

JCFalkenbergIII · #26 (**permalink**) March 3rd, 2008, 04:23 PM

I have read about that too. But I didn't think they rated as ramming LOL.

Za Rodinu · #27 (**permalink**) March 3rd, 2008, 06:40 PM

That's not ramming, there wasn't actual contact between the fighter and V-1 wings, the slipstream was thick enough to tip the V-1 wing. abd throw the gyroscope out of whack.

This certainly one of the craziest threads I've seen lately. I'm unsure whether this is a compliment, Falkie!

JCFalkenbergIII · #28 (**permalink**) March 4th, 2008, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

That's not ramming, there wasn't actual contact between the fighter and V-1 wings, the slipstream was thick enough to tip the V-1 wing. abd throw the gyroscope out of whack.

This certainly one of the craziest threads I've seen lately. I'm unsure whether this is a compliment, Falkie!

Well along with my mess kit thread I thought I would post something different LOL.

JCFalkenbergIII · #29 (**permalink**) March 4th, 2008, 05:22 AM

Saw this posted in the WWII Films and TV forum and thought it belonged here too

.

Sonderkommando Elbe was the name of a World War Two Luftwaffe task force assigned to bring down Allied bombers by ramming German aircraft into the bombers. The Elbe is a river that runs through Germany to the North Sea. The term "Sonderkommando" itself in German means "special unit" and was also used to designate work units of Nazi death camp prisoners forced to aid the killing process during The Holocaust, in the case of the Elbe pilots, however, this is not a euphamistic term. While the Luftwaffe had a ready supply of airplanes at this point in the war, well-trained pilots and fuel were two components in short supply. Despite the grim prospects of survival of such a mission, the unit was not a true "suicide unit" in that the pilots were expected to attempt to bail out just before colliding with the Allied aircraft.
The aircraft of choice for this mission was a Bf 109 stripped of armor and armament. To accomplish this mission, pilots would typically aim for one of three sensitive areas on the bombers. The easiest part of an Allied bomber to damage was the empennage, or tail assembly, with its delicate control surfaces on the elevator and rudder. Another potential target were the engine nacelles, which connected to the highly explosive fuel system. The final target was also the most gruesome--the cockpit.
Adding to the last ditch nature of this task force, the only mission was flown on 7 April 1945 by a sortie of 120 Bf 109s. While only 15 Allied bombers were attacked in this manner, eight were successfully destroyed.[1].[2]{A 100th Bomb Group B-17 was attacked by a SonderKommando Elbe Me-109 but only damaged; the German Pilot was not killed. See [2].and [[3]]}

Sonderkommando Elbe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JCFalkenbergIII · #30 (**permalink**) March 5th, 2008, 02:52 AM

B-17F "Fighting Swede" Serial Number 41-24520USAAF
5th AF
43rd BG
63rd BS

1942

1942 via R. Puzzo
Pilot Major Robert N. Keatts, O-381156
Co-Pilot 1st Lt William E. Ward, O-725386
Navigator 2nd Lt John P. Murnane, O-790983
Bombardier M/Sgt Richard G. Tennant, 15012411
Engineer T/Sgt Charles Kachigian, 6718892
Asst Engineer Sgt Oilman J. Beerwert, 15059026
Radio Cpl John T Mannion, 12021941
Asst Radio S/Sgt Bernard E. Parker, 17030208
Tail Gunner Sgt William S. Bates, 12031947
Photographer Pfc Frank O. Goodwin, 14063639
MIA May 8, 1943 at 0900am
MACR 13689
Crew History
It is reported that a US Army Lieutenant was also aboard this plane. He is not listed above, nor is there any mention of his presence in the MACR.
Mission History
Took off from Port Moresby from 7-Mile Drome at 0640am on a armed reconnaissance mission to Madang and Saidor on the northern coast. Its last reported position was 50 miles north of Madang, when it reported Japanese shipping, at 0900 hours, then never reported again. Subsequent searches both at the time and after the war yielded no signs of the crew and plane. Some members of the 63rd BS heard that Radio Tokyo reported an incident on the 8th of May in which a Japanese fighter pilot had rammed a B-17. This led to speculation that this was the cause of Keats otherwise unexplained loss.
Japanese Side
Wewak - The Early Days by Richard Dunn adds:
"nine Type 1 fighters (Ki-43 Oscars) of the 11th FR under Capt. Takashi Ninomiyo, commander of the 1st chutai. These encountered the B-17 while en route to cover the ships. Three Type 1 fighters under Lt. Junji Kobayashi broke off and attacked the B-17 initiating their first pass from slightly above and then completing additional head on passes. Though damaged, the B-17 headed for some of the clouds and rain squalls in the area. Unwilling to let the B-17 escape, Sgt. Tadao Oda commenced a head on pass that ended in a collision. Both the B-17 and the fighter fell into the sea in flames. There were no survivors. The Americans had no idea what happened to the B-17 flown by Lt. Robert Keats and his crew. Oda was lionized in the Japanese press for deliberately ramming and destroying the big bomber. He was promoted to Lieutenant posthumously."
Later that day, B-25 strafers and eight Beaufighters under the general cover of sixteen P-38s stalked the New Guinea coast looking for shipping and other targets. The two Japanese sea trucks were then entering Madang harbor carrying vital supplies and full of troops. Beaufighters swooped down and strafed the larger ship setting fires. A few minutes later the B-25s followed up against the ships with bombs and gunfire. Both ships were lost with all their supplies and heavy casualties. This included many of the personnel and much of the equipment of the 11th Airfield Construction Unit moving from Wewak to Madang.
Richard Dunn adds:
"One more bit of data. I found an account that states the ramming took place at 0813 (Tokyo time). That would be 0913 (US time). This leaves only about 13 minutes flying from the last B-17 contact report.

A possibility: At about 3 miles per minute (180 mph) that means the B-17 was probably less than 40 miles from its final contact report position. Moreover, since the B-17 probably maneuvered after sighting the Japanese fighters it was quite possibly not that far. While we don't know in which direction the closest cloud cover was, they were unlikely to head deeper into Japanese territory or much farther out to sea (my guess) so near the coast and not as far as 40 miles further NW is one possible location for their demise. Everything in the second paragraph is speculation but thought I'd throw it in for what it may be worth"

B-17F "Fighting Swede" Serial Number 41-24520

JCFalkenbergIII · #31 (**permalink**) March 5th, 2008, 03:17 AM

Soviet WW2 poster saying "The ram attack is the weapon of heroes." A fighter's propeller is destroying the larger enemy's tail

JCFalkenbergIII · #32 (**permalink**) March 5th, 2008, 03:33 AM

Soviet Union
In World War II, ramming became a legendary technique of VVS pilots against the Luftwaffe, especially in the early days of the hostilities in the war's Eastern Front. In the first year of the war, most available Soviet machines were considerably inferior to the German ones and the taran was sometimes perceived as the only way to guarantee the destruction of the enemy. Trading an outdated fighter for a technologically advanced bomber was considered economically sound. In some cases, pilots who were heavily wounded or in damaged aircraft decided to perform a suicidal taran attack against air, ground or naval targets. In this instance, taran becomes more like an unpremeditated kamikaze attack (see Nikolai Gastello).
Nine rammings took place on the very first day of the German invasion of the Soviet Union, one within the first hour. At 04:25 hours on June 22, 1941 Lt. I. I. Ivanov drove his Polikarpov I-16 into the tail of an invading Heinkel He 111. Ivanov didn't survive but was posthumously awarded the gold star, Hero of the Soviet Union.[3] Lieutenant Boris Kobzan survived a record four ramming attacks in the war. Alexander Khlobystov made three. Seventeen other Soviet pilots were credited with two successful ramming attacks. About 200 taran attacks were made by Soviets between the beginning of Operation Barbarossa and the middle of 1943, when enough modern aircraft had been produced to make the tactic obsolete (even if Russian fighter pilots were still trained to perform it). However, Evgeny Stepanov stated in an interview that more than 580 taran attacks were made by VVS pilots in WWII.[4]

Ramming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JCFalkenbergIII · #33 (**permalink**) March 5th, 2008, 06:10 AM

Hey!! I just noticed that the thread has 4 stars!!! Thanks!!!!

JCFalkenbergIII · #34 (**permalink**) March 5th, 2008, 06:49 AM

WOW!!! 5 now

JCFalkenbergIII · #35 (**permalink**) March 5th, 2008, 07:37 AM

Ki-61 Special Attack Unit
The tactic of using aircraft to ram American B-29s was nothing new in 1944. The first recorded ramming by a Ki-61 occurred in late August, during a raid when B-29s from Chinese airfields were sent to bomb the steel factories at Yahata, enlisted pilot Shigeo Nobe of the 4th Sentai intentionally sliced his aircraft into a B-29. Other attacks of this nature followed, as a result individual pilots determined it was a quite practical way to destroy B-29s.[citation needed]
On 7 November 1944, the officer commanding the 10th Hiko Shidan made ramming a matter of policy by forming ramming attack flights specifically to oppose the B-29s at high altitude. The aircraft were stripped of their armament and protective systems in order to attain the required altitudes.
The units assigned to the 10th included the 244th Hiko Sentai, then commanded by Captain Takashi Fujita who organised a ramming flight named "Hagakure-Tai" ("Special Attack Unit"), which was composed of three sections: the 1st Chutai "Soyokaze", 2nd Chutai "Toppu", and the 3rd Chutai known as "Mikazuki".
First Lt. Toru Shinomiya was selected to lead the attack unit, he would became famous by ramming an American B-29 and living to tell the tale. Shinomiya attacked the B-29 on 3 December 1944, and brought himself and his damaged aircraft home, he would eventually lose his life as a Tokkotai pilot in the battle for Okinawa. Another 244th pilot, Masao Itagaki, performed a similar feat on the same occasion, but had to parachute from his damaged fighter. A third pilot, Officer Nakano, of the Hagakure-Tai of the 244th rammed another B-29 and crash-landed his stripped-down Ki-61 in a field. Sergeant Shigeru Kuroishikawa was another distinguished member in the unit.
The existence of the ramming unit had been kept confidential until then, but it was officially disclosed in the combat results announcement and officially named "Shinten Seiku Tai" ("Heart of Heaven Intercept Unit") by the Defense GHQ.
But these pilots gained no reprieve and despite their successes they were obligated to continue these deadly and dangerous ramming tactics until they were killed or else wounded so badly that they could no longer fly. They were regarded as doomed men and were celebrated among the ranks of those who were going to certain death as Tokkotai (kamikaze) pilots.
Some other Ki-61 pilots also became well-renowned, among whom was Major Teruhiko Kobayshi who was credited by some with a dozen victories mostly due to conventional attacks against B-29s.[14]

Kawasaki Ki-61 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FalkeEins · #36 (**permalink**) March 5th, 2008, 04:19 PM

..thanks for a very interesting thread..here's a couple of contributions from me. The first piece is extracted from Erik Mombeek's history of Jagdgeschwader 4 - not available in English yet (my translation).

".......Ogfr. Heinz Papenberg of 6. (Sturm)/JG 4 also had good reason to recall this sortie ;

... On 27 Sepember 1944 II./JG 4 was vectored to intercept a large formation of enemy bombers over Eisenach nr Kassel. As we came upon them we could see there were no escorts in the vicinity. Deprived of their fighter screen the bombers were virtually sitting ducks. Selecting a bomber slightly adrift of the main formation, I bore in on my target. At close range I pressed the firing button to unleash a burst from my onboard armament. Nothing happened! I tried again. Nothing! I thought then about the Sturm commitment to ram and decided to do it! In my mind's eye I can still see the tail gunner as he flung himself back into the bomber's fuselage. One second later my port wing sawed through the bomber's rudder. Badly damaged in the collision, my wing could hold the plane in the air no longer and I spun away... for a few moments I decided I was going to die as my kite spiralled down out of control. The desire to live soon reasserted itself. I threw the stick forward and hit the canopy jettison button. The sliding section of the hood only partially opened and I had to push against it with all my strength. It suddenly flew off and I was whipped out of the cockpit. Flung against the tailplane, the force of the blow snapped both my legs. I lost consciousness. I came round at about 200 meters altitude still free falling. I could see the ground rushing up to meet me and tugged frantically at the ripcord. Above me my chute billowed open. I came down in a field along the slopes of the Rhön and lay spreadeagled on the silk awning in agony from my injured legs and bloodied arm. I was in such a pitiful state I thought about putting a bullet in my head but some French land workers arrived and took me to a nearby farmhouse... I had barely reached the operating table of the nearest field hospital when another air raid alert sent everybody down to the cellar… I never returned to frontline duties.."

This next description is extracted from Vol II of the Lorant/Goyat JG 300 history (published by Eagle Editions). This incident is described in a letter I have from Hubert Engst II.(Sturm)/JG 300 - he said it was one of only two rammings he knew about while serving throughout 1944 in one of the three Sturmgruppen of the Luftwaffe ..and the only one he witnessed....(my translation...enjoy !)

" ....On 7 October 1944, the 8th Air Force launched a huge force of some 1,420 bombers
to strike at synthetic fuel plants and industrial sites in north-eastern and central Germany:
— 1st force (149 B-17s of the 1st BD) synthetic oil plants at Pölitz.
— 2nd force (333 B-17s of the 1st BD) refineries at Ruhland and Brüx.
— 3rd force (451 B-17s of the 3rd BD) refineries at Böhlen, Lützkendorf and Merseburg/Leuna.
— 4th force (489 B-24s of the 2nd BD) refineries at Magdeburg-Rothensee, Bückau and the Kassel-Henschel and Altenbauna vehicle plants.

To screen this armada, 900 fighters of the 8th and 9th Air Forces were ordered up. The German forces available to meet such a massive incursion comprised the three Sturmgruppen, escorted by the Bf109s of I./JG3, III./JG4, I./JG300 and III./JG300, as well as several Me163 rocket fighters of I./JG400. All of these fighters were slated to concentrate their attacks on the B-17s of the 3rd force, while a small number of Me262 jets of Kommando Nowotny would attempt to intercept the B-24s of the 4th force.
At 10:30 the thirty minute readiness alert sent nearly ninety JG300 pilots out to their aircraft arrayed around the fields at Borkheide, Löbnitz and Jüterbog. Twenty minutes later, the green flares shot up into the sky. The Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs, displaying their wide red fuselage bands, lifted off between 10:50 and 11:05, straining for altitude to rendezvous and form up in a Gefechtsverband (battle formation) at a height of 7,000 meters over Wittenberge. Along with the four 190s of his Stabschwarm, the Kommodore Maj. Walther Dahl took up a position at the head of this powerful formation. Orders came through to take up a track towards the Kyffhäuser.
Directed with precision through a sky banked with altocumulus cloud formations, the pilots of II.(Sturm)/JG300, IV.(Sturm)/JG3 and II.(Sturm)/JG4 sighted the first boxes of bombers west of Leipzig at 11:50, glinting in the sun. Lt. Klaus Bretschneider ordered the assault fighters of II.(Sturm)/JG300 to gain altitude rapidly. The Focke-Wulf 190s launched their strike with a height advantage of 1,000 meters in ideal conditions. Converging in successive waves of eight to ten aircraft their 30mm cannon cut swathes through the bombers, the Sturmböcke breaking left and right underneath them to sweep around moments later for a second pass from the rear. The sky soon became a gigantic spectacle of criss-crossing trails of smoke and vapor. Large numbers of parachutes started to mushroom open.
In the opening minutes of the attack, at least eight Boeing B-17s sheered out of their boxes and plunged down in flames. A further three Boeings were spotted trailing smoke or spewing parachutes in their wake. Two of the four-engine bombers went down at 12:05 under the withering fire pumped out by Ofhr. Peter Winter and Lt. Klaus Bretschneider. The latter immediately latched onto two further Fortresses. Leaving one of the by now battered B-17s to drift out of formation, Bretschneider, having exhausted his ammunition, deliberately rammed the second - his wing sliced through the bomber's own wing, hacking it off some five metres from the tip. The B-17 peeled away into a vicious flat spin. Although slightly injured by the force of the collision, Bretschneider managed to retain control of his Fw 190 and put down safely - despite a buckled aileron - on the first airfield he spotted....".

JCFalkenbergIII · #37 (**permalink**) March 6th, 2008, 12:34 AM

Thanks for the additional info. Im always on the look out for more

Sloniksp · #38 (**permalink**) March 6th, 2008, 03:10 AM

Yes very informative indeed.

Thank you.

TA152 · #39 (**permalink**) March 6th, 2008, 07:42 AM

There was a Marine Corsair pilot that intercepted a Japanese recon plane at high alitude and the Japanese rear gunner's gun was frozen from the cold and the Corsair's guns were frozen so he chopped off the Japanese rudder with his prop. I want to say it is Ira Kempford but I may be wrong. The Russian poster made me think of the story. It could have been Kenneth Walsh too.

JCFalkenbergIII · #40 (**permalink**) March 6th, 2008, 08:17 AM

"One unique account was that of Lt. Alexi Khobistoff of the Red Air Force, who perfected an unusual method of destroying enemy aircraft when his plane's guns froze from ice build-up. With his sights set on a Heinkel 111, the distracted Khobistoff struggled to clear his guns when all of a sudden the prop of his plane tore through the bomber's wing. He managed to stay airborne while his target careened into the ground. He repeated this act a second time, but on this day it was intentional, cutting the rudder off of yet another German bomber. The third time and his fifth kill happened when a 109 mortally wounded his plane. Rather then go out quietly, the tenacious Khobistoff dove his plane into the nearest enemy fighter he saw, chewing its tail to bits. He bailed out and spent several weeks in the hospital, never to repeat his unorthodox tactic."

P-40 and Zero

JCFalkenbergIII · #41 (**permalink**) March 8th, 2008, 06:25 PM

From a site about about Soviet females .

"During the most difficult period of the war (June 1941-1942), our pilots committed more than 200 ram attacks. Dozens of airmen followed the heroic feat of captain N.F. Gastello, who was the first to ram down enemy aircraft. At least 897 aircraft formations and units were decorated with orders, 708 units received honored titles and 238 became Guards units."

MILITARY PARADE MARCH-APRIL