Flying Rams and Air to Air Ramming - Page 3

JCFalkenbergIII · #51 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

lol ? what's that about ?

100 plus Elbe a/c were to take part, only around 50 took off and engaged for whatever reasons, turning back, not finding the bombers etc, not finding the bombers and pursued and eliminated by US escorts, in that case about 50 took part over 77 plus German pilots were shot down KIA or MIA, wounded for various reasons as part of the complete total of losses for the date. The "Elbe" faction was only a part of the days battle on the 7th of April

Just that I find it funny that so far most of the sources state a number of "53" aircraft

.

Erich · #52 (**permalink**) March 15th, 2008, 05:44 PM

probably since those sources you have checked have not been concerned with finding out the "real" LW losses through GErman archival sources.

JCFalkenbergIII · #53 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2008, 04:47 PM

Always a possibility

. But being off by 3 isn't so bad. I wonder where the other 3 they mentioned came from?

JCFalkenbergIII · #54 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 06:26 AM

As well as special aircraft and special tactics, the elite Sturmgruppe units were manned by volunteer pilots. A Sturmbock pilot needed a special courage and his career was likely to be spectacular but short. One of the most controversial aspects of the new Sturmgruppen, at least post-war, was the requirement to sign the Verphlictungserklärung or affidavit which a pilot had to do before he was accepted into a Sturmgruppe. Each pilot had to sign an affidavit as followsI, -, do solemnly undertake that on each occasion on which I make contact with an enemy four-engined bomber I shall press home my attack to the shortest range and will, if my firing pass is not successful, destroy the enemy aircraft by ramming
The symbol of the unit became the 'whites of their eyes insignia' which represented the close quarter nature of their combat. But the notion that pilots were expected to sacrifice themselves was to a large extent sensationalised in Walther Dahl's historically exaggerated account entitled 'Rammjäger'. It was not until the end was in sight that calls for kamikaze style or Selbstopfer missions went out.

Dahl has described how he lead the Sturmgruppe into the attack.
An allen kleinen Brüder : noch dichter aufschliessen zum Sturmangriff!! Wer keinen abschiesst , rammt !! Ra-ba-za-nel-la !!!
( Although in a recent interview Hans Weik confirmed that the term 'Rammjäger' was never part of Luftwaffe jargon and that Dahl never led the Sturmgruppe in for a Sturm attack )
There is some evidence to suggest that the Japanese were influenced by this concept and took it to it's logical conclusion. In the event Hauptman Willi Moritz was to value his pilots lives rather more than certain of the more zealous advocates of Sturm tactics and quietly dropped the matter of the signed declaration to ram after taking over IV./JG3 in June 1944.

Walther Dahl, Wilhelm Moritz and Oskar Romm

Leutnant Walther Hagenah who flew with IV.(Sturm) Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 3, explained the terms of the affidavit to author Dr Alfred Price:
" It was made clear to us that, having signed the affidavit, failure to carry out its conditions would render us liable to trial by court martial on a charge of cowardice in the face of the enemy. No man was forced to sign, however, and there were no recriminations against those who did not wish to do so; they simply did not join the ranks of the Sturmgruppe..."
Despite the fact that each of them had signed the affidavit indicating their readiness to ram the enemy bombers if all else failed, it was rare for Sturmgruppe pilots to take this course. Hagenah never rammed a bomber, nor did he ever see anyone else do so: "If we held our formation, ran the gauntlet of the bombers' defensive fire and reached a firing position l00yd behind a bomber, with our powerful cannon it was a relatively simple matter to get a kill." If few pilots resorted to actually ramming a bomber unless they had the chance of escaping safely, others were more aggressive. As Staffelkapitän of 14 Staffel Werner Gerth had new pilots sign the Sturmgruppe affidavit as recorded by Uffz Karl Kapteina who joined 14 Staffel in October 1944. In his welcome speech to new arrivals Gerth made light of the commitment to ram given the efficacy of the Sturm tactic and weapons, although went on to describe how a pilot should carry out the Rammstoss and successfully bail out. Werner Gerth reputedly rammed on at least five occasions and was shot down at least 11 times . He was finally killed when his parachute failed to open after ramming a B-17 near Halle. There were a few occasions when pilots reached a firing position and found, for example, that their weapons had jammed. They then opened their throttle, pulled up a little, dived down and rammed. By and large, however, the cannon with its explosive shells were very reliable and ramming was rarely necessary. Indeed the Sturmgruppen never received instructions from the Jagdwaffeführung on how best to ram the enemy bombers though the matter was, of course, the subject of discussions in the Kasino (crews messroom). Of the pilots who made ramming attacks, about half escaped without serious injury.

All the pilots portrayed on these pages were brave men. They were not fanatics, certainly not Nazis. They were Germany's equivalent of 'The Few' and, just as the young fighter pilots of the RAF laid down their lives defending their country in 1940, so these young sometimes teenage, Jagdflieger fought to defend their families and their homeland. No doubt, like daring young men on all sides, they were looking for a little bit of glory. But as the Third Reich began to reap the whirlwind, advances in technology and the industrial might of the USA meant that the odds were stacked heavily against their survival. Even experience and courage was not enough when faced with impossible odds. By the 3rd August 1944 when Heinz Zimkeit was shot down and killed, the 12 th Staffel of IV./JG 3 was in Willi Unger's words " stark geschmolzen ", had literally melted away and was down to Schwarm strength. Only four Sturmbocks of 12 Staffel took off from Schongau on the 3rd August mission to combat the bombers. All of them were shot down. Only four men from Sturmstaffel 1's pilot roster of thirty six survived the war.....

Skipper · #55 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 09:41 AM

Sturmstaffel I was the most famous Ram Staffel. If you are intererested in this I suggest reading Mombeek's book about this.

This is what they swore before thye enlisted: "I volunteer for the Sturmstaffel of my own free will. I am aware of the basic objective of the Staffel... The enemy will be shot down at the closest range. If that becomes impossible, ramming will be the only alternative... The Sturm pilot will remain with the damaged bomber until the aircraft impacts. If these fundamentals are violated, I will face a court martial or I will be removed from the unit...

By the way I have a dedicated pic of Oscar Boesch

Erich · #56 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 01:26 PM

again this article has some problems within, Gerth for one may have rammed possibly only once, in truth hardly any of the SturmFw pilots rammed at all preferring to get in close with their 32cm cannons. All the info is within Falkeeins web-site who is a member here on this forum. Sturmstaffel 1 was not the most famous but was the creation by the crazy man Kornatski, the same paper affidavit was supplied to all 3 Sturm units but was ignored by the Gruppenkommandeur down to the Staffelkapitäns and down to the pilots themselves, the pilot was too important the machine expendable.

with several phone calls and written up interviews Oskar Bösch would totally agree with my findings

Skipper · #57 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 01:45 PM

That makes sense Erich, I suppose ramming was the last solution left, if anybody would have followed these lines, there wouldn't have been any veterans left. On the other hand things could be seen in a different way..We all agree that pilots would be too valuable to waste. However wasn't it a good step to "waste" a fighter vs a bomber with a crew of ten (providing the pilot could bail out? . I know this is pushing a bit far, but I'm sure these thoughts came across the pilots' minds too.

JCFalkenbergIII · #58 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 08:10 PM

Interview with World War II Russian Pilot Evgeny Stepanov
In the years before World War II, Russia's Evgeny Stepanov flew against the Germans over Spain and fought the Japanese over Khalkin Gol.

AH: I understand that you were credited with a double night taran, or midair ramming attack. Can you describe how you accomplished that remarkable double victory?
Stepanov: I did not really carry out a premeditated ramming attack. On the night of November 27-28, 1937, I shot down two SM.81 bombers in the vicinity of Barcelona. During this attack, I had to ram one of the bombers with the left leg of my Chaika's undercarriage. There was no special technique for ramming, nor could there be, since that was a last-ditch method in combat. During World War II, Soviet pilots carried out more than 580 rammings of German aircraft, after unsuccessful attempts to destroy them with gunfire.

TheHistoryNet | World War II | Interview with World War II Russian Pilot Evgeny Stepanov

JCFalkenbergIII · #59 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 08:13 PM

I have also read where some FW-189s returned to base with only one tail boom after being rammed by Soviet aircraft. Nothing more then that so far.

Skipper · #60 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 08:20 PM

Thanks Falkenberg the Soviet rammers is something new for me. Anything about the Japanese? I know the Kamikaze were meant to ram ships, but does anybody know whether they targeted planes or not?

JCFalkenbergIII · #61 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper

Thanks Falkenberg the Soviet rammers is something new for me. Anything about the Japanese? I know the Kamikaze were meant to ram ships, but does anybody know whether they targeted planes or not?

I did mention some Japanese attacks in posts 19,21,22,30,35.

Skipper · #62 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 08:43 PM

my apologies, I joined this thread later and did not read the earlier posts.

JCFalkenbergIII · #63 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper

my apologies, I joined this thread later and did not read the earlier posts.

No problem my friend

. I do that sometimes too LOL.

JCFalkenbergIII · #64 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 01:42 AM

One unique account was that of Lt. Alexi Khobistoff of the Red Air Force, who perfected an unusual method of destroying enemy aircraft when his plane's guns froze from ice build-up. With his sights set on a Heinkel 111, the distracted Khobistoff struggled to clear his guns when all of a sudden the prop of his plane tore through the bomber's wing. He managed to stay airborne while his target careened into the ground. He repeated this act a second time, but on this day it was intentional, cutting the rudder off of yet another German bomber. The third time and his fifth kill happened when a 109 mortally wounded his plane. Rather then go out quietly, the tenacious Khobistoff dove his plane into the nearest enemy fighter he saw, chewing its tail to bits. He bailed out and spent several weeks in the hospital, never to repeat his unorthodox tactic.
P-40 and Zero

JCFalkenbergIII · #65 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper

Thanks Falkenberg the Soviet rammers is something new for me. Anything about the Japanese? I know the Kamikaze were meant to ram ships, but does anybody know whether they targeted planes or not?

I think that the concept of self sacrifice came alot easier for the Japanese pilots then to the Western and European pilots. Thats why the Kamikaze concept was more acceptable to them. I think in the case of Western pilots it was perhaps a more of an act of desperation and anger or just wanting to get the kill. Though I cant account for the mulitiple acts by certain pilots LOL.

JCFalkenbergIII · #66 (**permalink**) March 30th, 2008, 08:27 PM

"In popular press legend it is often claimed that this bomber was attempting to attack Buckingham Palace but in fact it wasn't going to attack anywhere, because it had already been abandoned by its surviving crew, and was flying on autopilot by the time Ray Holmes rammed it.
The Dornier was from I/KG 76 and flown by Oberleutnant Robert Zehbe, and was part of a mission to bomb the railway lines running between Clapham Junction and Battersea power station. However the formation had come under heavy attack, and Zehbe's aircraft had been badly hit with two crewman dead, so Zehbe ordered the two other crew members to bale out, he then set the aircraft on to autopilot and baled out himself. The bomber flew on, as part of the formation at first, but soon the main formation changed course, and the abandoned bomber flew on alone, until its meeting with Ray Holmes."
source, The Most Dangerous Enemy, A History Of The Battle Of Britain. By Stephen Bungay

Twitch · #67 (**permalink**) April 1st, 2008, 04:10 PM

I haven't seen the FZG-76 Reichenberg mentioned. While Hanna Reitsch lobbied Hitler relentlessly to put together a suicide squad using the "piloted V-1" he kept a ban on the idea.

The Reichenberg I was a 1 or 2-seat glider for training purposes while the Reichenberg II was a fully powered version with the addition of a landing skid for landing and reuse. The Reichenberg III was the operational craft which would have a 540 MPH maximum level speed and a 1,870-lb. amatol warhead.

In Japan the Oka 11 was actually used in the conflict but The Oka 22 was tohave a very small jet engine so it could be launched farther away. It had a auxillary wing rocket motors to provide boost to elude interceptors. It was tested in July 1945 but not put into production before the war ended.

The Oka 33 would have used a NE-20 turbojet of 1,047-lbs. thrust and a final Oka 43 was envisioned using a ground launch system for repelling an invasion fleet.

The Kawanishi Baika (Plum Blossom) was specifically designed to be ground launched against invading ships. It used a Maru-ka Model 10 pulsejet though the prototype was not completed by war's end.

JCFalkenbergIII · #68 (**permalink**) April 3rd, 2008, 02:44 PM

Not exactly ramming but suicide attacks. We did discuss this in the thread I created titled "German Kamikazes".

German Kamikazes

JCFalkenbergIII · #69 (**permalink**) April 6th, 2008, 04:30 AM

Rammed at 15,000 Feet

by Hank Cervantes

September 1944, Berlin, Germany: Ultimate defeat was staring the Nazi’s in the face and Luftwaffe leaders were scrambling for new ideas to turn the tide. Thirty-year old Oberst (Group Captain) Hans-Joachim “Hajo” Hermann said to Reichs-marschall Hermann Goering, “With our new Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighters coming on-line, the day of the propeller-driven fighter is over. I propose that we gather our Messerschmitt Me 109 fighters and in one massive attack, ram the American bombers in midair. If we crash into them amid-ship, the Me 109’s steel propeller will act as a saw. The sturdy wing with a steel beam running through it will snap the bomber’s fuselage in two, and the long nose will help protect the pilot in order for him to bail out. I believe that the assault will so terrorize the American bomber crews, that they will refuse to fly any more missions.