Friendly Air to Air Kills. Blue on Blue incidents - Page 2

JCFalkenbergIII · #26 (**permalink**) March 12th, 2008, 05:46 PM

I also have read where a RAF Mosquito accidently shot dow a P-61 Black Widow. And in the Pacific there was an instnce where a P-61 shot down a B-29. But that was because it was damaged and the crew had bailed out while it was on auto pilot.

JCFalkenbergIII · #27 (**permalink**) March 13th, 2008, 02:03 AM

Has anyone any info on Axis or other country's Blue on Blue?

Tomcat · #28 (**permalink**) March 13th, 2008, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCFalkenbergIII

Has anyone any info on Axis or other country's Blue on Blue?

The germans were superhuman rememeber, they didn't make mistakes

JCFalkenbergIII · #29 (**permalink**) March 13th, 2008, 11:49 PM

Report No. 3
SHOOT DOWN OF A BEAUFORT AIRCRAFT
UNITED STATES PACIFIC FLEET FLEET AIR
PHOTOGRAPHIC SQUADRON ONE C/C
POSTMASTER, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA

FROM: COMMANDING OFFICER 1 1 OCT 1943 TO: COMMANDER ON CHIEF, UNITED STATES PACIFIC FLEET.
VIA: (1) COMMANDER FLEET AIR WING ONE.
(2) COMMANDER FLEET AIR, SOUTH PACIFIC.
SUBJECT: AIRCRAFT ACTION REPORT.
1 . DATE: JULY 12, 1943, LAT. 06-30 S. LONG.154-02 E. TIME: 0215 ZN.-1 1

2. WEATHER: GOOD VISIBILITY AT SCENE OF ACTION.
3. UNIT REPORTING: VD-1. CARNEY FIELD, GUADALCANAL PLANE: 31982.
PLANE TYPE: PB4Y-1
PATROL PLANE COMMANDER:LIEUT. (JG) W.G. CORBETT, USN.

4. NATURE OF OPERATION: ROUTINE SEARCH
5. SPECIFIC OBJECTIVE: 1 BETTY AND THEN UNIDENTIFIED TWO ENGINE PLANE.
6. FORCES ENGAGED: OWN: ENEMY:
1-PB4Y-1 1 BETTY 1 BEAUFORT

7.TYPE OF ATTACK: PURSUIT (BY PB4Y OF BETTY AND UNIDENTIFIED PLANE LATER BELIEVED FRIENDLY BEAUFORT).

8. ENEMY TACTICS: STRAIGHT AWAY SPEED BY BETTY RESULTING IN ESCAPE. TACTICS OF BEAUFORT TURNED DIRECTLY TOWARD PB4Y, THEN, MADE SHARP RIGHT TURN ABOUT 500 YARDS AHEAD OF OUR PLANE. THEN USED STRAIGHT AWAY SPEED.
9. DESCRIPTION OF ACTION: SEARCH PLANS SIGHTED BETTY AT SAME ALTITUDE OF 1,000' AT 0208. POSITION 06-20 154-25E. BETTY PULLED AWAY WITH SUPERIOR SPEED IN DIRECTION OF BUKA PASSAGE. RANGE NEVER CLOSE ENOUGH TO FIRE. AT 0215 SIGHTED 2 ENGINE PLANE LOW OVER THE WATER HEADING FOR BUKA PASSAGE. DOVE ON THIS PLANE. OTHER PLANE SIGHTED PB4Y AND TURNED DIRECTLY TOWARD OUR PLANE. ALTITUDE AT THIS TIME FOR BOTH PLANES WAS 100 FEET. AT ABOUT 1000 YARDS BOTH PLANES FIRED. WAIST GUNNER AND TAIL GUNNER SAW SPLASHES IN WATER INDICATING FIRE FROM THE OTHER PLANE. TOP TURRET AND BOW TURRET OF PB4Y FIRED. OTHER PLANE MADE SHARP RIGHT TURN ABOUT 500 YARDS DISTANT. AT THIS POINT TOP AND BOW TURRETS WERE HITTING WELL. OTHER PLANE PULLED AWAY RAPIDLY OUT OF RANGE. PB4Y CHASED FOR 10 MINUTES WHEN OTHER PLANE WAS OBSERVED TO SMOKE AND CATCH FIRE. PLANE MADE A 90-DEGREE TURN TO RIGHT AND LANDED ON WATER. PB4Y CIRCLED OVER CRASHED PLANE. TWO SURVIVORS IN THE WATER WERE DEFINITELY IDENTIFIED AS WHITE MEN. A LARGE LIFE RAFT WAS DROPPED WHICH PARTIALLY INFLATED. RAFT LANDED 40 FEET OVER THE MEN. SURVIVORS DID NOT SEE IT. THEY WERE CLINGING TO PART OF THE WING AND MADE NO EFFORT TO REACH THE RAFT. TWO LIFE JACKETS TIED TOGETHER WERE THEN DROPPED NEAR MEN. ONE MAN SWAM OUT AND GOT THEM RETURNING TO THE WING SECTION. ANOTHER JACKET WAS DROPPED WITH THE FOLLOWING NOTE ATTACHED. "YOUR POSITION REPORTED TO BASE RADIO. WILL DROP RATIONS. RAFT IS AHEAD OF YOU. WILL DROP SMOKE LIGHTS BY RAFT. WILL HAVE TO LEAVE SHORTLY DUE TO LIMITED GAS SUPPLY." SURVIVORS GOT NOTE. ONE SWAM TO RAFT AND PULLED IT TO COMPANION WHEN THE MEN WERE ABOUT 100 FEET APART. LIFE JACKETS WERE DROPPED WITH KIT FROM OTHER RAFT IN PLANE CONTAINING RATIONS, WATER, FIRST AID KIT, FISHING GEAR, VERY PISTOL, SMOKE GRENADE. AT 0302 SENT MESSAGE IN CODE REPORTING, "UNIDENTIFIED PLANE SHOT DOWN. BELIEVED TO BE FRIENDLY. DROPPED RAFT TO TWO MEN. SEA CALM. WILL CIRCLE UNTIL ORDERED OTHERWISE. POSITION 6-40 SOUTH 13402 EAST." RECEIVED NO ORDERS FROM BASE. DEPARTED SCENE 0545. SENT MESSAGE SAYING, "TWO AMERICANS PREVIOUSLY REPORTED ON RAFT ARE AT 06-30 SOUTH 154-02 EAST AT 0600. RETURNING TO BASE." WIND WAS S KNOTS FROM 132 TRUE LAST REPORTED POSITION BELIEVED ACCURATE. AFTER INTERVIEW ON LANDING, PILOTS THOUGHT PLANE SHOT DOWN WAS A MOSQUITO. COMMUNICATION WITH COMSOWESPAC ESTABLISHED THAT A SEARCH BEAUFORT OPERATING FROM MILNE BAY IN AREA IN QUESTION MISSING. IT IS BELIEVED THIS IS THE PLANE SHOT DOWN. THE BEAUFORT HAD NOT AS FAR AS IS KNOWN BEEN PREVIOUSLY SIGHTED IN THE SOLOMONS AREA. NO INFORMATION WAS AVAILABLE AT THIS BASE ON SEARCHES FROM SOWESPAC AREA.

10. WEAPONS EMPLOYED: OWN: .50 CALIBER MACHINE GUNS.
OTHER PLANE: MACHINE GUNS.

11. EVASIVE ACTION EMPLOYED: NONE BY OUR PLANE. NO EFFECTIVE
EVASION BY OTHER PLANE.

12. AMMUNITION EXPENDED: ABOUT 500 ROUNDS OF.50 CALIBER, BELTED 1-1-1 13.

13. RESULTS: TWO-ENGINE PLANE LATER BELIEVED TO BE BEAUFORT SHOT DOWN. TWO SURVIVORS PROVIDED FOR AS EXPLAINED.

14. DAMAGE TO OWN AIRCRAFT: NONE.

DISTRIBUTION:
COMINCH (1 COPY DIRECT). H.J. DYSON

The crew and U.S. Navy PB4Y-1 Liberator
that shot down RAAF Beaufort A9-225
Back Row: Sisk AOM 1/C - Bow Turret; Ballard AP 1/C - Nav.; Corbrett Lt(jg) - Pilot; Brooks Lt(jg) - Co-Pilot; Sager AMM 1/C - Port Waist; Lindell AMM 2/C - Tunnel Gun Front Row: Kowen ARM 2/C - Stbd Waist; Moore AMM 1/C - Tail Turret; Swainson CPHOM; Dillon PHOM 1/C - Belly Gun; Sandell ARM 1/C - Top Turret..." Contributed by Steve Sisk

NOTE:- The US Navy designator for the B-24 Liberator, Models D to M was PB4Y-1, with no sub-identity to tell you what you were looking at. Many US Navy B-24Ds had the "greenhouse" replaced with an ERCO ball turret & chin bombing sight, and later models mostly had the CVAC turret similarly replaced, thus making it difficult to pick a model anyway.
The PB4Y-2 was the Privateer, the single tail, stretched fuselage version with the oval engine axis vertical instead of horizontal.
PB: Patrol Bomber
4: Fourth type of PB
Y: Consolidated Aircraft Company
1: First model of PB4Y

RAAF Beaufort shot down by a U.S. Navy PB4Y-1 Liberator near Rabaul on 12 July 1943

JCFalkenbergIII · #30 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 03:46 AM

Ml.Lt. Zizevskii 14 IAP 29/Aug/1945 damaged and forced to land 1 USAF B-29 while flying Yak-9 Source: VVS Russia (Ãîðÿ÷åå íåáî)

Air Aces Homepage

JCFalkenbergIII · #31 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 04:29 PM

A CASE OF MISTAKEN IDENTITY
DURING WW2

In the early part of the war in the South West Pacific area there were many cases of mistaken identity when allied aircraft were fired on by allied forces.
Japanese aircraft used the Rising Sun roundel on the side of the aircraft. The Americans affectionately referred to it as the "meatball". Australian aircraft used a roundel which had a red circle in the centre of a blue and white circle. At a distance this was sometimes confused for the Japanese meatball. Similarly, the early American marking for USAAC aircraft had a red circle in the centre. This also led to many cases of mistaken identity.
As can be seen by the pictures below, it is quite possible for personnel to mistakenly identify an aircraft as a Japanese aircraft. To overcome this the Americans changed their markings as can be seen below. Similarly the Australians painted out the centre red circle leaving a white and blue circle (see below).

The Unit History Sheet - Detail of Operations, Sheet No. 55 for 13 Squadron RAAF has an entry for 27 March 1942 which read as follows:-

"Orders issued by the U.S. Air Staff to the effect that the red circle in the American insignia on all United States aircraft was to be immediately painted white to avoid mistakes in recognition, particularly by ground troops."

The Japanese meatball or Rising Sun
on an Aichi E13A "Jake" Floatplane

2 seater Yokosuka E14Y "Glen"reconnaissance floatplane

The early RAAF Roundel
on a Boomerang

The modified RAAF Roundel

B-25 Mitchell with early
USAAC marking

B-25 Mitchell with later

USAAF marking

A case of mistaken identity

TA152 · #32 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 04:41 AM

That post made me think of a post I wanted an answer for but never got a good one for it.

In early WWI the Germans used the cross with flared ends for several years and then went to the + style cross. The answers I got say it was for better recongination. In WWII they used the + cross but after the war till today they have gone back to the flared ended cross.

Any idea why they changed crosses in the middle of WWI ?

Don't spend too much time on it, but if you happen to know I would like to read about it.

Thank you

JCFalkenbergIII · #33 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 07:57 PM

This so far

.

Initially all German and Austro-Hungarian military aircraft in service used the Iron Cross insignia. The Balkenkreuz, a black Greek cross on white, officially replaced the earlier marking from late March 1918, although the last order on the subject, fully standardising the new national marking, was dated June 25, 1918.
LuftstreitkrÃ¤fte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally, Austro-Hungarian aircraft were marked with various
variations of white and red striping on the wings, tail plane, and/or
fuselage. Rather early in the 1914-1918 war, they switched to a cross
patée to match the national insignia used by their German allies. They
further switched to the straight sided Balkenkruez shortly after the
Germans made the same switch in early 1918. The dimensions and
proportions of these markings tended to be extremely variable with each
manufacturer apparently applying their own interpretation of the cross
designs.

Markings on German planes - soc.history.war.world-war-ii | Google Ô½Õ´Õ¢Õ¥Ö€

JCFalkenbergIII · #34 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 11:05 PM

After coming across limited sources on the incident that happened on the 7th of November, 1944, all I discovered was a report from the headquarters of 866 IAP. In this report, it states that at 12:50pm 12 American planes( P-38 Lightening) attacked a Russian Infantry that were traveling west from Nish. Four of the American planes started an attack on the Russians while the rest of them was keeping watch at 1500 meters. After several rounds were fired, the Russian artillery shutting down one of the American P-38 planes. At 1:00pm, 2 YAK-9 planes took off. At 1:05pm, 6 more YAK-9 planes followed and then at 1:10pm 2 YAK-3 planes also followed. A dog fight broke out between the countries ending with 2 YAK-9 planes being taken down by the Americans and one more by friendly artillery fire. Russian planes and antiaircraft artillery shut down 5 Lightening planes. The P-38 displayed an impeccable ability to maintain horizontal and were were able to quickly maneuver onto the tail of YAK-9 planes because they had a much shorter radius of banking(turn-in). The YAK99 had better ability to withstand vertical maneuvers.

Air Classics Vol. 38, No.8 August 2002

JCFalkenbergIII · #35 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 01:38 AM

Kind of Blue on Blue LOL.

The Japanese Army captured some P-40s and later operated a number in Burma. The Japanese appear to have had as many as ten flyable P-40Es.[57] For a brief period, during 1943, a few of them were actually used operationally by 2 Hiko Chutai, 50 Hiko Sentai (2nd Air Squadron, 50th Air Regiment) in the defense of Rangoon. Testimony to this fact is given by Yasuhiko Kuroe, a member of the 64 Hiko Sentai. In his memoirs, he says one Japanese-operated P-40 was shot down in error by a friendly Mitsubishi Ki-21 "Sally", over Rangoon

Curtiss P-40 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JCFalkenbergIII · #36 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 06:53 PM

Yugoslavian Claims

por. Dragomir Zecevic zas, Dragan Stanisavljevic.
254. puk. 09/Aug/1946 claimed 1 USAAF C-47 while flying Yak-3

Vladimir Vodopivec ,Milorad Knezev
254. puk 19/Sep/1946 claimed 1 USAAF C-47 while flying Yak-3

The USAAF C-47s were shot down over the northern part of Yugoslavia, which is part of Slovenia now. During the summer of 1946 there was a tense situation on the Italian/Yugoslav border regarding Trieste.

Air Aces Homepage

JCFalkenbergIII · #37 (**permalink**) March 30th, 2008, 08:21 PM

And of course there were quite a few incidents during the Berlin Airlift. But no one being shot down.

JCFalkenbergIII · #38 (**permalink**) April 5th, 2008, 01:45 AM

Still waiting for someone who may know if there were any other incidents with the Axis or other countries.

Tomcat · #39 (**permalink**) April 5th, 2008, 02:45 AM

Here is a good site on captured Allied bombers being used by the germans with a few descriptions on friendly fire incidents

KG200 Site - The Real KG200 - Allied Planes Used

wiki's information on Kampfgeschwader 200 (KG 200)

Kampfgeschwader 200 (KG 200) (Battle Wing 200) was a secret Luftwaffe bomber unit during World War II. The unit was the Luftwaffe's special operations wing that carried out long-distance reconnaissance flights, tested new aircraft designs and tested and flew special missions with captured aircraft.

JCFalkenbergIII · #40 (**permalink**) April 15th, 2008, 12:28 AM

One of my favorite German units.

JCFalkenbergIII · #41 (**permalink**) April 25th, 2008, 02:47 AM

"The German Luftwaffe and Italian Regia Aeronautica captured over forty airworthy B-17s and at least four B-24s. We only know the fate of a fraction of these aircrafts. We do know that by early May 44, KG200 had at least four operational B-17s (three Fs and one G), and 2 (probably 3) B-24 Liberators, a D and an H (and a J?)."

I didn't realize that the Regia Aeronautica had captured quite a few. But I did notice that most of the aircraft listed on the site were shot down by German Flak.

JCFalkenbergIII · #42 (**permalink**) May 4th, 2008, 07:28 PM

With the use of some captured US aircraft by the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica did any of them get shot down again by the USAAF?