Aircraft brought down by "Neutral" countries.

JCFalkenbergIII · #1 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 06:29 PM

We all know that Switzerland fired on both Axis and Allied aircraft. Has anyone heard of any other neutrals or any others doing the same thing?

Tte Miguel Entrena Klett of the Spanish EJERCITO DEL AIRE Grupo 27 claimed 1 Lockheed P-38 "Lightning", 12th United States Army Air Force, on 3 March 1943 while flying He-112 (5.68). From what I can find so far the story goes that Klett came upon 11 US P-38s inside Spanish airspace. He attacked out of the sun and made a diving pass on the trail-end aircraft. ]He made several hits with the 20mm gun as he was out of ammunition for his wing machineguns.The plane started trailing smoke and was forced down in Algeria along the Border of French Algeria and Spanish Morroco.
The translation from some of the Spanish sites to English really sucks LOL. Im not sure but I think they were being ferried to Algeria and not carrying ammunition. Which if they had would sure have changed the outcome LOL. another incident claimed was a PBY Catalina strafed by a Fiat CR.32. Does anyone have addional info on these incidents?

Stefan · #2 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 06:49 PM

One question that springs to mind is what was he doing to be out of MG ammo?

JCFalkenbergIII · #3 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 06:52 PM

If I read correctly they weren't loaded by the groundcrew for some reason.

PzJgr · #4 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 07:23 PM

Interesting. I have never heard of the He 112. It looks nice

JCFalkenbergIII · #5 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 07:36 PM

JCFalkenbergIII · #6 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 07:38 PM

Introduced into active service in 1937, the Heinkel 112 lost out in competition to the Messerschmitt ME 109, and was only produced in limited numbers, most aircraft seeing service with other nations after a short period with the Luftwaffe. Some were pressed into service with the Spanish Air Force, and the later B2 version served with the Rumanian and Hungarian Air Forces. One Spanish HE112, piloted by Lt. Miguel Klett, damaged a 14th Fighter Group P-38, forcing it down in Spanish Moroccan territory. Plagued with engine problems, the aircraft never quite reached its potential. It does serve, however, as a bridge between the last of the Luftwaffe biplane fighters, and the later famed ME 109 and FW190 series.

http://www.rollmodels.net/nreviews/a...frazier112.php

PzJgr · #7 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 07:40 PM

Spanish Air Force colors?

JCFalkenbergIII · #8 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 07:43 PM

When Allied forces landed in North Africa, the Spanish forces in Morocco found themselves once again on alert. Due to the navigational difficulties of the day, they found themselves repeatedly intercepting straying aircraft from both Allied and German forces. For instance, on the 8th of November they intercepted C-47s dropping paratroops on Morocco. On other occasions they intercepted Spitfire Vs from Gibraltar, and Dewoitine D.520s operated by the Vichy French out of Algeria. None of these incidents resulted in losses.
On March 3 1943 a formation of Allied planes was seen straying into Spanish airspace yet again, and Grupo 27's alert plane was scrambled with Teniente Miguel Entrena Klett at the controls. After climbing to 3500 m, he spotted the target aircraft and identified them as eleven Lockheed P-38s. He then positioned for an attack out of the sun (which was to the rear of the formation) and made a diving pass on the trail-end aircraft. Several hits were made with the 20 mm rounds (his MGs were later discovered to be unloaded), and the plane started trailing smoke and was forced down in Algeria.

Skipper · #9 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 07:53 PM

The Swedish shot down whoever crossed their territory whether Axis or Allied. The Spanish did so too. They even attemped to shoot down the French survivors who attempted to reach Gibraltar in June 1940

JCFalkenbergIII · #10 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PzJgr

Spanish Air Force colors?

Yes it is. The cover of the "He-112 in Action" shows the encounter between the P-38 and the HE-112.

JCFalkenbergIII · #11 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 09:08 PM

The He 112 was to designed to compete for the RLM specification for a completely new monoplane fighter, a compitition that is surprisingly lost to the Bf 109 against which it proved more manoeuvrable. Seventeen were supplied to Spain where they were flown by civilian pilots and were judged superior to the Bf 109C. 15 of these aircraft continued in Spanish service until after World War II.
Luftwaffe test pilots were delighted with the aircraft and although a small run were built as insurance, Messerschmitt retained the overall contract. A number of these were later sold to the Japanese Navy which hated them because of the high wing loading. 13 B-0 and 11 B-1 models were sold to Romania which used them in the 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union.
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/he112.html

Mats · #12 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 10:37 AM

Regarding the Swedes shooting at US planes.

I have read something like this:

An American bomber, damaged efter bombing Berlin, tries to make it to Sweden. When approaching swedish territory, they are contacted from the ground:

"You are now enterring swedish territory which is prohibited"
The captain answered " Yes we know"

"If you enter, we have to shoot you down"
Captain; "Yes we know"

The swedes started to shoot - then suddenly they could hear the captain saying: "You are shooting far behind us"
The swedes answered: "Yes we know"

True or not?? It was written in a book som 60 years ago.

Mats

Skipper · #13 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 11:38 AM

Very possible Matts, it is widely know that the Swedish neutrality was inclined towards the allies. They has to fire but they did not have to hit the target

Za Rodinu · #14 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 01:31 PM

in Lockheed P-38 Lightning

Quote:

The 82nd Fighter Group, another P-38F group, joined the 1st and 14th in Europe in November, 1942. Shortly all three groups were transferred to North Africa, the MTO. En route, over the Bay of Biscay, 82nd FG pilots downed two Ju 88 bombers. Several P-38's of the 1st FG, low on fuel, were forced down in Portugal, likely candidates for internment. In a comical scene, recounted in Aces in Combat: The American Aces Speak, Vol 5, by Eric Hammel, Lt. Jack Ilfrey made good his escape, while demonstrating the airplane's features to his armed Portuguese "hosts."

The Portuguese government protested mightily against this breach of internment law, and the US did RETURN the miscreant P-38.

Jack Ilfrey

Skipper · #15 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 04:16 PM

Thanks Za, a nice addition to this thread.

Za Rodinu · #16 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 03:15 PM

We also had a flight of some 30 P-39s flying in from the UK over to Op. Torch, and had to divert and land in Portugal. After the usual diplomatic shenanigans, the pilots were quietly flown out after properly wined and dined, an arrangement was found and the US government SOLD the P-39s to Portugal. Also the P-38s above were duly paid for!

That sort of flying off with the plane antics are something that is very pretty in the comix but it doesn't fit well with the realities of international laws to be observed.

IIRC correctly in the P-39s (which had a long career in the PAF) the 37mm cannon was found to be a problem (ammo supply) and was replaced in due course by a 20mm cannon, likely compatible with those in the Hurricane IIc we already had.

JCFalkenbergIII · #17 (**permalink**) March 23rd, 2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

We also had a flight of some 30 P-39s flying in from the UK over to Op. Torch, and had to divert and land in Portugal. After the usual diplomatic shenanigans, the pilots were quietly flown out after properly wined and dined, an arrangement was found and the US government SOLD the P-39s to Portugal. Also the P-38s above were duly paid for!

That sort of flying off with the plane antics are something that is very pretty in the comix but it doesn't fit well with the realities of international laws to be observed.

IIRC correctly in the P-39s (which had a long career in the PAF) the 37mm cannon was found to be a problem (ammo supply) and was replaced in due course by a 20mm cannon, likely compatible with those in the Hurricane IIc we already had.

Thanks Za. I hadn't known how the Portugese aquired the P-39s LOL.

Za Rodinu · #18 (**permalink**) March 23rd, 2008, 10:31 PM

Let's see what I can gather... Interned aircraft in Portugal appear to be:

2 x P38 (1 x F; 1 x G)
15 x P-400 Airacobra
4 x P-39L ditto, all in service till 1950
6 x Liberators (B-24 + PB4Y)
1 x C-47
1 x Lockeed Hudson
1 x Vic. Wellington X

There were also other crashed planes not taken on strength, including sundry Condors and maritime Ju88s. I'm sorry but this is not my field so take this as FWIW.

BBC - WW2 People's War - The Crash of Hudson 3a in Portugal

Elsewhere:

Quote:

Fortunately, this was soon followed by a notice that he had been interned in Portugal. He told us afterwards that they had crash-landed in the sea off the Portuguese coast and been picked up by a patrol boat. As Portugal was a neutral country, they were put up in a hotel in Lisbon. Someone came from the embassy and took them to a store where they were fitted with civilian clothes. Eventually they were repatriated and brought home an attaché case full of drink with which we celebrated. He also gave me one of the two lightweight suits that he had brought back.

350th Fighter Group in WWII

Quote:

The Group’s 75 pilots flew their P-39Ls (346 Sq) and P-39-400 (345 Sq and 347 Sq) fighters from RAF Stations Portreath and Predannack, on Land-Ends, England, to Port Lyautey, French Morocco, during the period 3 Jan to 28 Feb 1943. Sixty one arrived at the destination airfield. Ten pilots that encountered head winds, instead of the forecast tail wind (the only fuel reserve on the 1200 mile, six to seven hour over water flight) were forced to land in Portugal where they were interned. One more landed in Portugal after losing all electrical systems. One flight that broke up in a severe line squall over the Bay of Biscay lost one pilot, (KIA)—he was flying alone, probably still on the deck, at max range cruise settings (165 to 175 MPH), when he was likely ambushed, and was shot down by a patrolling Ju-88 pilot of KG-40 who claimed the kill; one pilot, after closing on the French coast to determine his location, ended up short of fuel and crash landed in Spain , where he was interned; another pilot on that flight became lost and crash landed in Ireland while attempting to return to England.

JCFalkenbergIII · #19 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 04:09 PM

Nice little airforce they had going there. I didn't know that the P-39 was used till 1950 though. Do you know what happened to the P-39 that landed in Spain?