Jagdtigers in combat? - Page 2

Joe · #26 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 07:59 PM

Another nail in coffin for the "Panzers R Better" argument there TA!

FramerT · #27 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironcross

Why did they even put this poorly engineered vehicle into production?

I can't really answer that. Even if it were reliable, it was too little, too late in the war to help.

Hufflepuff · #28 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

Here's a what-if for you: What If Gen. Patton ever heard of your attitude, eh?

He'd probably either shoot us with his revolvers, or beat us with his riding crop.

Hufflepuff · #29 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCFalkenbergIII

What would a Grant be doing in France or Germany? lol

Well I get ur guys' points and all, but I saw a few in a US newsreel footage from Paris in 1944, so I assumed there might be a few in ETO after D-Day.

But yeah, its suicide either way.

JCFalkenbergIII · #30 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 03:30 AM

Im not sure what you saw was a M3.The M3 was replaced by the M4 as soon as these were available, and none were used in the European theatre after May 1943. Certainly not as a MBT

. Maybe it was a M31 Tank Recovery Vehicle .

"When it was eventually replaced by the M4 Sherman it went on to serve in Burma and the Pacific theatres, but a few were modified to carry search lights and became known as Canal Defence Light (CDL) Tanks in the European theatre of action. These had the turret replaced by spotlight. Some used to illuminate night crossings of Rhine and Elbe in 1945 and some of this variant were sent to Far East but never used."

acker · #31 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 04:45 AM

After reading Another River, Another Town, a couple interesting things came up.

-Allied Shermans could and did use HE shells to destroy the drive sprockets of fixed-gun TDs, which rendered the TDs in question harmless. They also could "circle-strafe" fixed-gun TDs at close quarters.

-HE shells were used against Panthers and Tigers to damage the turret and/or key components.

-Firing from a moving tank was hard, even in a Sherman. Firing from a moving fixed-gun TD was even harder.

The author was the gunner of a 76mm Sherman and a Super Pershing. His information about tank-to-tank combat should be reliable. So, Stugs and other fixed-gun tanks definitely had a disadvantage when on the offensive, or in mobile combat.

T. A. Gardner · #32 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 06:17 AM

The trick that always impressed me was Sherman crews using WP (white phosphorous) rounds on heavier German tanks as a first choice. These would first, blind the target upon impact by releasing a cloud of smoke. Second, the smoke was extremely acrid and usually got sucked into the ventilation system of the target tank choking the crew and temporarily rendering them unable to respond. This gave the Sherman crew a chance to either pump several more rounds into the target or, run before they got shot to pieces.

Za Rodinu · #33 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 12:53 PM

The best AT weapon the Western Allies had was a B-25 Group over a marshalling yard. Battles are best won outside the battlefield so why bother with minor details such as gun penetration? Take the long view, think as a strategist, not a tactician.

Such as the Russians later said their best AA weapon was a T-72 sitting in the middle of a USAFE runway

(honest!)

As for tanks running circles round others, there is in Battlefield.ru (right now it seems to be down) a report on a single T-34/85 smashing three (3) Kingtigers in a very lively battle, with the T-34 using its mobility against the KTs. Next time I come back to this thread I'll try again to find it.

~~Ironcross~~ · #34 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

a report on a single T-34/85 smashing three (3) Kingtigers in a very lively battle, with the T-34 using its mobility against the KTs. Next time I come back to this thread I'll try again to find it.

NO WAY. I don't believe you.

Za Rodinu · #35 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 06:11 PM

"O ye of little faith" !! Calling Za Rodinu a liar

Gds. Lt. Oskin, Hero of the SU, Lenin O.

Quote:

"An enormous tank crawled from within the valley. It was jerkily climbing up and swerving on the sand. From the left flank, Major Korobov exclaimed on the radio:
- They're coming!
I replied:
- Be patient! Open fire from 400 metres only!
Behind the first tank, the second beast came from the valley, and soon the third tank appeared. The first had already passed Ivyshkin's ambush position.
- Fire? - he asked.
- Fire!
I saw a part of the haystack over Oskin's tank move, and the gun barrel appeared. It fired, and then again and again: Oskin had commenced the battle. Through my binoculars, I could see black holes in the sides of the German tanks. At first I saw only smoke, but then I saw flames. The third tank turned to Oskin, but it was immobilized after it received a hit in its tracks, and then it was hit again for good. I called the code signal "307 - 305" on the radio. At that moment, German Howitzers began firing, and soon the air in the valley up to Ogledów was filled with smoke and dust." Junkers bombers and Messerschmitt fighters appeared in the sky at the same time that Soviet fighters arrived. An air battle began."

Read The Russian Battlefield - The Royal Opponent for more.

WW2 Tanks

Quote:

In August 1944, alone Soviet T-34/85 supported by SMG platoon, held defence near Ogledow village, Poland. Meanwhile, sPzAbt501 unit just got 45 brand new heavy tanks PzKpfwVIB. During a 50km march 37 (!) of them were immobilized due mechanical breakdowns. On 10 August, the rest of the KingTigers reached Ogledow. Next morning three KingTigers started attack to a bridge over Vislula river. Gds.lt. Oskin (the commander of the Soviet tank) spotted unfamous-looking German tanks on a road. The T-34/85 was excellently camouflaged, so Oskin decided to wait a little. When the Germans reached a distance less than 200m, the Soviets opened fire by APDS and regular AP rounds hoping to penetrate the side armor. One of the KingTigers was flamed by tree hits, and the Germans couldn't even spot where the fire came from. Another PzKpfwVIB took three hits, but its thick armor was not penetrated. 4th round impacted precisely under the turret, and the victim exploded.
The last KingTiger tried to run, but it was impossible. The T-34 fired a smoke ammo, then did maneuver to intercept and killed him.
The result: 11 men of German crews were killed, 1 captured by Soviet SMG platoon; two KingTigers were totally destroyed, and last one was repaired and moved to Soviet polygon Kubinka (where it was learned).
Germans reported about "strong Russian anti-tank defense, impossible to penetrate it by existing forces".
Lately, 3 more PzKpfwVIB were captured in Ogledow.
Guards lt. Oskin was awarded with the Gold Star of the Hero of Soviet Union, the other crew members (incl. the excellent gunner serg. Abubakir Merkhaydarov and the loader A. Khalyshev) were awarded with an orders.

WW2 Tank Aces

(believe it or not, googling for Lt. Oskin has already brought up this very thread, so WW2F is already a reference

)

And...

~~Ironcross~~ · #36 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

"O ye men of little faith" !! Calling Za Rodinu a liar

Gds. Lt. Oskin, Hero of the SU, Lenin O.

Read The Russian Battlefield - The Royal Opponent for more.

But Manstein said the Germans were superior to the Russians in every way but their number. Are you calling Von Manstein a liar?

Za Rodinu · #37 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 06:21 PM

In a word: yes.

Read his memoirs ("Lost Battles") with a critical eye. Manstein's attitude was "Like I told Hitler", but he always entered the Führer's Conferences full of his own ideas, and came out with Adolf's ideas in his head. Guderian was much more honest as a memoirist.

This is the Tao of the Truth: Do not believe in everything you read in the internet, read books.

v.M. had a very big axe to grind, I expect you not to believe propaganda at face value, or else I prefer to believe you were being sarcastic.

JCFalkenbergIII · #38 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 06:32 PM

[quote=Za Rodinu;277431
(believe it or not, googling for Lt. Oskin has already brought up this very thread, so WW2F is already a reference

)[/quote]

LOL

. Didnt think of that.

~~Ironcross~~ · #39 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

you were being sarcastic.

Yes, i was.
I guess i am just too pro German to bring myself to accept the fact that the Russians won.....
Germany needed more land..... WHY COULDN'T RUSSIA JUST GIVE SOME LAND TO GERMANY? All the sufferings of the German people, the casualties, all have been in vain.
sorry

Hufflepuff · #40 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 07:07 PM

Question:

Is there any way that an infantryman with normal combat equipment could break open the hatch of a tank (like a Jagdtiger) that was lokced and throw grendes in the hatch? I remember seeing that from Saving Private Ryan and I found it highly doubtful that the German tank crew3 would simply leave thier hatch unlocked moving down an empty street with tall buldings on the sides (great opportunity for Grenades, snipers, and Molotov cocktails, as you saw in the film).

Za Rodinu · #41 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironcross

Yes, i was.
I guess i am just too pro German to bring myself to accept the fact that the Russians won.....
Germany needed more land..... WHY COULDN'T RUSSIA JUST GIVE SOME LAND TO GERMANY? All the sufferings of the German people, the casualties, all have been in vain.
sorry

John, the war closed 63 years ago, I think that is pleanty of time to get used to the idea, especially as you are in your twenties...

As for the Land question, that's pure and unadulterated first class bullshit. There's absolutely NO WAY Germany needed to invade a single acre of land belonging to another country for agricultural reasons. Any country, I say again, any country can make up an agricultural shortfall (if any such exists outside the absolute poorest Third World) through regular imports paid off by industrial or services export.

What you are saying refers to the lousiest, most ridiculous pseudo-bucolic mythology as propounded by such Thousand Years Reich luminaries as Walther Darré and Alfred Rosenberg. Which I believe you never read, by the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hufflepuff

Question:

Is there any way that an infantryman with normal combat equipment could break open the hatch of a tank (like a Jagdtiger) ...

Huffy, vehicles rarely travel alone, so when they find themselves in such straits there's always somebody (another vehicle or infantry) ready and willing to "scratch their back" (US Army parlance), that is, spray a burst or two on the vehicle's back to clear off the assaillant.

Hufflepuff · #42 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

Huffy, vehicles rarely travel alone, so when they find themselves in such straits there's always somebody (another vehicle or infantry) ready and willing to "scratch their back" (US Army parlance), that is, spray a burst or two on the vehicle's back to clear off the assaillant.

I understand that, I'm just wondering if its physically possible.

Za Rodinu · #43 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 07:27 PM

Technically yes, on a parade ground with a stopped tank

But as we say here, I started to believe in everything since I saw in the circus a bear riding a bike

A molotov cocktail on the engine grilles is much easier and more efficient than your "knock-knock who's there" trick.