for the Ss-Pz Korps at Kursk no it was not the Pz III but indeed the Pz IV with skirt and cupola shielding in all three Pz Gren. Divs at the time, the III was being fazed outward and used for training in the Lehr Abteilungs and still as mobil command Panzers. I have the figures somewhere right after Sylvester Stadler did his monumental work on Kursk through the now-defunct Munin Verlag back in the 1970's when I was a punk nose W-SS nut; I have quite extensive listings for the Panzers and the Grenaider mockups for the very battle aided by German sources of the time.... one of these days I will pull it all out to re-do and get totally current, and as Skunk oput it it was the Stug on the III chasiss that could kill ALL Soviet armor and was used time and time again and depended on, those Stug Abteilungs and Batteries were pur joy hidden in the brush. the 1944 Pz. Div's had an Abteilung of Panthers and one of Pz IV and Stug III combined in the armored component, this evidenced by German documentation even in the later war W-SS div.'s that some still claim had the best of the best

Hmm...I should read more than just the last post before continuing but too late...

At the beginning of 1943 (Jan 13) the 19th and 27th Panzer Divisions and Hungarian 1st Armoured Division had between them 15 serviceable tanks as an example of Wehrmacht strength at the southern Front at least.
By February 20 Manstein had under his command a total of 800 tanks including the Tigers of the SS I Panzer Corps. Following Kharkov the 1st and 2nd SS Panzergrenadiers also received Panthers for the upcoming Kursk battle. Ferdinands were sent to XXIII Corps and XLVII Panzer Corps. (ref. Battle of Russia 2005 Taj Books, largely reproduced wartime records and a DVD of wartime propaganda footage).

Now from what I've read the SS Panzergrenadiers had the pick of the litter from this array of re-equipment. Let's have a look at the letter given by Adolf Hitler to his commanders regarding Operation Citadel:
"...At the main points of attack the finest units, the finest weapons, the finest commanders will be committed, and plentiful supplies of munitions will be ensured."
-it is my contention that Hitler within context was talking firstly about the SS I Panzer Corps whose commanders he'd only just finished decorating for the Kharkov turnaround and secondly was offering the regular Army access to the same provisions previously given to his favoured troop force (there are several reasons I can extrapolate upon request).

At this time the recently decorated SS Leibstandarte were receiving Panthers (over 700 already built), whilst all armoured divisions were using the StuG III, Marders, SdKfz 231 and various other armoured cars, and of course the 105mm Wespe SPG and 15cm Hummel. In fact to be honest until shortly before Kursk only the SdKfz had good mobility and numbers with the Wehrmacht and were largely being used in the StuG role.

Oh, remember the StuG III was only capable in the anti-tank role when fitted with the L/48 gun (Ausf.G) whilst the L/43 gun (Ausf.F) could kill a tank at close range. The L/24 gun of earlier versions was SPG field artillery only. Only the Ausf.G was equipped to Panzer units in place of tanks.

Examining Leibstandarte as at Feb 43 they had two Panzerjäger companies and Flak companies for the two infantry regiments but the Panzer Regiment is listed as a heavy, which of course means Tigers and indeed according to a wide variety of other sources including wartime records this is indeed the primary striking arm of Leibstandarte in early 1943. I have photographs of Leibstandarte Tigers approaching Kharkov.

Secondly, I have seen photos of SS Panthers on the Kursk battlefield, I'll try to find some. Hey that's interesting, the Soviets used a lot of KV-1 tanks in 1943 (some other photo, nevermind).

Now I presume the heavy tank regiment of Leibstandarte consisted of 1 company of Tigers (historically specified), 6 companies of Pz.IV Ausf.G/H (L/43 and L/48 Kwk40), 1 Tiger command tank and 2 Pz.IV Ausf.H command tanks (fitted with AA MG-34 mount and Luftwaffe radio operator), a pioneer company of Pz.III Ausf.M (L/24 Kwk40), and two light Panzer columns probably equipped with StuG Ausf.F's.

Now the Wehrmacht was getting by largely on Pz.III Ausf.N and Pz.IV Ausf.F2 being supplemented by StuGs. Panzerjägers largely used Marders. And most of this was academic, because in the field only the armoured cars were retaining either mobility or serviceability in majority numbers.

Great information, but what does any of this have to do with this thread?, other then writing many various facts about the differnet tanks invovled throughout the Russian conflict, this has, again concluded nothing to do with the most widely used tank


And this?

Now the Wehrmacht was getting by largely on Pz.III Ausf.N and Pz.IV Ausf.F2 being supplemented by StuGs. Panzerjägers largely used Marders. And most of this was academic, because in the field only the armoured cars were retaining either mobility or serviceability in majority numbers.[/quote]

Armoured cars and Self Prepelled Guns are technically classed as tanks and and attempt should not be to enclude them into this thread if that is what is happening here.

So do which tank do you think out of the "Pz.III Ausf.N and Pz.IV Ausf.F2" do you think was the most used? Do you think another tank was?

Please in my opinoin, I have noticed your posts althouhg informative, tend to drag on about information and facts that have nothing to do with the orignal thread. The whole top of your post I feel is irrelevant, for you have quoted us facts without any oy your opinions or views on the thread.

And yes you should start al least half way down the page before joing a thread.

__________________
They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Tch, how hasty.

__________________
Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

ah sorry but there were no Panther tanks in the SS Panzerkorps at Kursk, the first ones are attributed to Das Reich in August of 1943 for the defense of the Mius where they inflicted heavy casualties upon the Soviets attacks - reference source Sylvester Stadlers SS-Pz Korps at Kursk and the excellent work by George Nipe

Thanks Erich, I do dislike running around with awry perceptions. I was sure however I'd seen a photograph of a wrecked Panther at Kursk. I'll try to hunt it down. You're aware the Panther entered full production in November 1942? Of course it was stepped up when Henschel and Niedersachan were brought in during '43 and as Speer reorganised general production techniques that year.

I'll look up the reference, thanks for the heads up

It's hard not to be morbidly fascinated by the Panzergrenadiers, the way a poisonous snake is interesting. My own documentation is pretty explicit about serviceability rates and vehicle mobility among the Wehrmacht per se however. AFV strength from probably November '42 to February '43 which is a crucial period, and a little before and after then were largely carried by the SdKfz.231 (especially during the rains and mud) and StuG III where on strength, in the field (plus whatever Pz.III and IV models were still operating, very, very few by all accounts). Otherwise since the Soviet Winter Offensive outiside the gates of Moscow the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front until February '43 fought a classical style of virtual trench warfare, and with Hitler's insistence on Citadel after then it was too late. Hence OKH pleading for a withdrawl to the Wotan Line. His interference directly ruined the chances of successful invasion in 1941 too.

Any additional or more credible links/references on the Wehrmacht formations as mentioned would be gratefully received. I wouldn't like to be off about that too.

Panthers at Kursk were used by Heer units only

I'm a latecomer to AFV's so it'll take a little time before I've read everything that's good a hundred times over yet. You're obviously certain about the Panthers and should know better than me. I was sure too, but nowhere near as confident.
I've got say forty really good books on aircraft and two on vehicles, plus whatever I can remember from docos. Luckily one of my books has a lot of German diary entries and whatnot, but it is super detailed for one period and then very general for another (meaning you have to use it with detective work and I haven't honestly done all the ground work).

I hereby defer to Erich's more comprehensive knowledge

Vanir and all, a suggestion : please check through the old archivs from day one in 2001 Kursk and other engagements on the Ost front, German/Soviet AFV's have been covered extensively

as to your library give it time, I as well as many others here have done considerable research over many many years, interviewed many veterans and have accumulated many titles, and for some of us that is in the thousands

machs gut !

vom Frühlingsplätzchen ( my little place in the Spring )

E ~

... on Gen. Model's 9th Army, Army Group Centre only.

__________________
Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."