I agree with Valkyrie, an assault rifle is better in an overall setting but for long range I would choose the Kar98 because of the power and better range than the M1. The M1 was a great rifle though and I think if I were a soldier it would probably be my weapon of choice out of the ones mentioned. I might also add that the soldier's training and abilities probably had more to do with how well they performed in battle than the rifles ever would. Also I think that comparing the rifles of back then is like comparing assault rifles now, they are almost the same but depending on what the person thinks is more important, be it power, accuracy or rate of fire. The rifles are all almost exactly the same with the exception of the Garand.

That is precisely why I like the Garand. The Kar98 is good choice too, probably my number one. I wouldn't know since I live in a country where you can't try them.

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The point made about the .303 cartridge by canadian citizen is one of the main reasons why I like it. Common ammunition throughout a unit is always good, so you don't have to waste money designing new cartriges that might be worse than the original.

I would rather have one common cartridge throughout the infantry ranks (with the exception of heavy weapons and the webley revolver) rather than a whole ton of weapons that all fire different types of ammunition.

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"Live as brave men; and if fortune is adverse, front its blows with brave hearts." - Cicero

"It's called getting wounded, Private. Injured is when you fall out of a tree or something." - Sgt. John Martin, "Band of Brothers"

Hufflepuff "

And do your know "why " the Sten and Browning pistol where chambered for nine millimetre, and not some other type of ammunition ?

Jim b. Toronto.

I don't know the answer to that entirely, but my guess is that the soldiers could take ammunition from the MP-40 (also 9mm) if the soldiers ran low on ammunition. Tell me if I'm wrong...and I probably am lol

__________________
"Live as brave men; and if fortune is adverse, front its blows with brave hearts." - Cicero

"It's called getting wounded, Private. Injured is when you fall out of a tree or something." - Sgt. John Martin, "Band of Brothers"

Um every vet I know loved his Garand. After the ping it only takes a second to have eight more in. This was always done in a fight.

Ah the advent of the assault rifle....

Bah! If it is within 600 meters and you can shoot well enough the M1 is your buddy. Now if we want to talk sniping find another thread. Power, if you get hit by any 30-6 round you are going to be hurting.

Who was asking for a detachable mag???? Come on please. Eight is enough. The stripper clip works well for eight to ten rounds and this is enough for anything less than full auto.

M1 FTW.

__________________
"What might work in New York City is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the federal government to be having any kind of, you know, blanket rules that they're going to try to impose, I think doesn't make sense." Hillary Clinton

(Photo removed for humanitarian reasons.)

Is there some round confusion here? At least last time I looked at the data the 30-06 and 8mm Mauser were so close performance wise that there was no difference. Of course if you are talking the M1 carbine rather than the M1 Garand that may be true.

Slightly diverging from topic should the M2/M3 carbines be considered assault rifles?

I wondered about frances gun laws...so what CAN you own? shotgun only? that's a shame...if hillary or barack get elected we'll soon have similiar gun laws in this country as well. and crime will skyrocket as a result.

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In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility:but when the blast of war blows in our ears,then imitate the action of the tiger;stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;then lend the eye a terrible aspect. William Shakespeare

I picked this up as well and decided to let it go to keep the peace....I have seen and heard the m-1 m-2 carbines referred to as assault rifles also but they are carbines. the m-2 is closer to a sub-machine gun than an assualt rifle. an assault rifle fires rifle cartridges and that is how the weapons are usually categorized, by caliber and not size or description.

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In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility:but when the blast of war blows in our ears,then imitate the action of the tiger;stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;then lend the eye a terrible aspect. William Shakespeare

the sten was chambered in 9mm after the british captured millions of rounds of this ammo from the germans and italians in africa, or at least thats what I have read. detachable mag? that was me who mentioned that....its a niggling complaint surely but if given the choice....I'd prefer to reload that way as its easier and faster. anyway, a lot of this is personal preference....it reminds me of that other question: whats the best sidearm? the answer is simply: the one that you 'resonate' with best and that is also reliable and fires a potent man-stopping round. Glock? Sig? Colt? H&K? they are all good.

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In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility:but when the blast of war blows in our ears,then imitate the action of the tiger;stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;then lend the eye a terrible aspect. William Shakespeare

To everyone misinterpreting me out there, I dont hate the M1 Garand. I was just stating that had a very minor drawback. I don't wish to start any argument over that kk

About Valyrie's point: Very good point bout the 9mm cartridge good for close quarters combat in its availability and stopping power.

__________________
"Live as brave men; and if fortune is adverse, front its blows with brave hearts." - Cicero

"It's called getting wounded, Private. Injured is when you fall out of a tree or something." - Sgt. John Martin, "Band of Brothers"

Valkyrie :

You are correct about the STEN being designed to make use of the tons of 9mm rounds captured in North Africa. The Browning Hi Power pistol was designed long before the start of WW2, so that was just a happy co-incidence. The 9mm round was and is a pistol round, so it has a slower muzzle velocity and more limited "effective range " than a rifle bullet does. Effective range is defined as the distance at which " it will seriously wound or kill the enemy ". The Sten is effective out to about 100 feet, thats all.

The 9mm pistol is a "last chance " weapon on the battle field. I know bcause I carried one for years as a Canadian Forces M.P. from 1966 to my retirement in 1996.

Given my choice, in a WW2 battle, I'd have taken the Lee Enfield mark four 303 rifle any day, with the Bren a close second . Tough and accurate, with a smooth bolt system , and a choice of reloading 10 round mags or 5 round stripper clips, it was hard to break and easy to maintain. Leaf ladder sights that went out to 600 yards and reliable extraction and feed mechanisms, made the LEE ENFIELD 303 the standard rifle of the British and Commonwealth forces from 1895, to the late 50's. Still in use around the world in civil wars and minor scuffles, and being made TODAY by the gun smiths in local bazzars in Afghanistan , to sell to the buyers who can't afford a AK or SKS.

A few tips about the STEN SMG, from a long time user.

Don't put your pinky finger of your left hand near the ejection port , it hurts like hell when the hot brass comes flying out to the right side. Never carry it cocked, the safety selector is easy to knock off into single shot mode. Because of it's design, with a blow back bolt system of recocking, when you do pull the trigger, the bolt flies forward, changing the balance of the weapon , to the front. So be ready for that . Only fire two or three rounds at a time, otherwise the weapon "climbs up and to the right " off target. Never load the mag with the 30 rounds that the book says it can hold. That will reward you with endless "jams " and hard extractions, due to the feed lip of the mag not being well seated in the body of the weapon, plus the magazine springs will break, after a while, if the full 30 rounds are stuffed into them .

Much better to only load 27 rounds or so to avoid problems, and NEVER do the Rambo idiot thingy , and try to tape two mags together, end for end. That only gets dirt and crap in the mag's feed mouth and guess what? Jams result and that can really ruin you whole day on the battlefield.

The Browning 9 mm is a really heavy and bulky pistol, and it's ONLY saving grace is it's 13 round mag capacity. BUT as I said, if that hunk of 9mm iron is the only weapon you have with you..................

Start praying young soldier, you are truely in deep doo doo.

One final word about the "effective range " of the 303 round. It can still KILL you at 5,280 feet, which is ONE MILE.

Machine guns, such as the Vickers 303 were used as a form of "light artillery " in WW2 to harass and kill rear area Germans, who thought they were "safe and out of the line of fire. ". Firing on preset lines and elevations , at night, they were a constant irritation to the Nazis who were trying to move about and resupply their lines with ammo food and water. Map refferences and grid numbers would be set up during the day, by the artillery FOO 's ( Forward Observation Officer ) who gave the fire missions to the heavy MG's of the support company to work on, in the dark. Firing over a hill or at a distant rear area road junction, that was completely out of sight, was commonplace in those days.

20 to 30 rounds were fired as a burst, then a pause, then some more rounds on that target , then a shift to another target , all night long, firing as much as 15,000 rounds per gun per night, with 8 guns in a support company battery, spread out along the front of the Battalions positions.

That certainly discouraged Fritzy from being too active at night, and the noise of the MG's helped to cover the departure of our fighting patrols, as they went out to try to snatch a prisoner, or do a 24 hour "hide out " at a observation post near the other guy's lines. The Canadians were famous for night time attacks , and keeping the other guys off balance.

Jim Bunting. Toronto.

thanks Jim for the insightful comments here, its always nice to hear from someone who has 'been there' and 'done that' and possibly even 'made their bones' I get my knowledge from books by timothy mullins and peter kokalis with the classical reference works by Hogg and Stevens as well. I have studied small arms all of my life so for at least the past 30 years I have been learning and unlearning all that I could.

so I know not to tape mags together, to load mags a few rounds short in rifles and smg's. what I really love hearing though is advice from someone who has actually used these weapons in the field. priceless.

I have fired many of the ww2 small arms, lugers, 1911's, m-1 garand, m-1 carbine, mp-40, etc. but I have never fired a shot in anger. my knowledge is gleaned from those who have so I try not to chime in if I truly know nothing about the subject. there are many out there writing for the popular gun press who truly know little or nothing about the effectiveness of the calibers and weapons of which they profess to be 'experts' on.

again, thanks for sharing!
Kate

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In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility:but when the blast of war blows in our ears,then imitate the action of the tiger;stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;then lend the eye a terrible aspect. William Shakespeare

Kate :

You are welcome.

My WW2 information comes from some of the "old guys " who were still members of the 48th Highlanders of Canada, when I joined in 1966. They had served, in many cases, from "DAY ONE " in September of 1939. The entire Battalion stepped one pace forward, when the question was asked by the Colonel " Who here wants to volunteer to serve in action with me " ?

By 1966 they were a part of the 48th Highlanders reserve unit, that I joined at age 19. Talk about a living history education, after Friday night parades in the mess. I went to the "regulars " the folowing year, but retained my connection to the "glory boys " to this day.

My second source of battlefield information especially about machine gun tactics was my Dad , who was a machine gunner with the 4th Canadian Machine Gun Battalion in the First World War. He survived three years in thetrenches of Flanders, was wounded three times and came home stone deaf in one ear. He was my direct source of information for all my life untill he died in 1981 at age 83.

My own career spanned a number of NATO and UN assignments in places like Cyprus, Congo, Gaza Strip,Hatii, and Bosnia. As a M.P. investigator I did a number of war crimes investigations, as well as ordinary criminal cases in Canada that involved CF members or attempts to steal CF property such as weapons and equipment.

Along the way I managed to complete a Master's in Criminology, and for my own enjoyment a undergraduate degree in 20th century Canadian history.

Does Peter Kokalis still write for Soldier of Fortune ?

Jim B.

How do I put this nicely...

You're all talking rubbish.

Try examining the man pulling the trigger not the gun.

Thats what makes a weapon effective.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Red baron:

So if I understand you correctly, you would have been OK with carrying a 22 caliber single shot target rifle into action in WW2 while the "other side " had their automatics ? I really don't think that you have THOUGHT about this very much, have you ?

Jim B.

What good is your semi Automatic rifle, if the firer cant hit anything?

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

They do have a point there, but to controversial, even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

__________________
"What might work in New York City is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the federal government to be having any kind of, you know, blanket rules that they're going to try to impose, I think doesn't make sense." Hillary Clinton

(Photo removed for humanitarian reasons.)

So you think the markmanship of the man has nothing to do with it, what does the gun matter if the guy cant shoot straight? Clearly YOU are the one who hasnt thought about it.

I would suggest you read more on combat effectiveness and the relevance of the differing doctrine of rifle training between the armies especially between the US and the German army before ranting on about which gun does what.

But to get you started, seeing as people go on about the M1 Garand, lets look at a few choice comments relating to the US Army in the ETO during 1944...

"in an average experienced infantry company only 15% of soldiers fired their weapons, while the best units under extreme, heavy comabt managed to produce fire from 25% of all soldiers." Taken from 'Men Against Fire'.

Lt. Colonel John Hentges, commander of 3rd Divisions 7th Infantry, summed up the view as to why soldiers did not shoot enough...

"Our greatest need in training is to get riflemen to fire their weapons. New men will not fire. This is primarily caused by not wanting to disclose their position and inability to see the enemy or something to aim at. I believe our policy of putting so much of our basic training on known distance ranges where men are cautioned so often on holding, squeezing and marking the target causes this".

A training memo from the 78th Division told its officers...

"new men must be told and re-indoctrinated that aggresive fire keeos the Germans pinned down and allows their own units to advance. Remind the soldiers that the M-1 and BAR throw alot of lead and the unit that keeps firing intelligently can always move on the battlefield".

"Units put too much faith in artillery firepower and often failed to generate enough fire with their own organic weapons. The performance of the individual soldier indicated other training weaknesses..." from 12th Army Group.

My comment was tongue in cheek... Yours was just rude.... So my hackles are up now.


So tell me why the training level of the man has nothing to do with combat performance on the battlefield, regardless of the weapons capability... Im all ears...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

This thread is about rating the rifles not the riflemen. I don't care how good a shot the members of your platoon are if they are equipped with Brown Besses and the other guys are equipped with M-1's you are in trouble. In a larger since the mg's and even more important the artillery makes a bigger difference than the quality of the rifle but that also is outside the scope of ths thread.

The quality of soldiers belongs in another thread. Feel free to star up a thread on overall quality within armies, you might get some surprising answers.

As for accuracy; I really don't see the difference between the accuracy of a Garand and that of a Kar after you dump both of them in mud, clean them out with dirty equipment, then load them with military-grade ammo. Without a precision-made barrel and match-grade ammo, the accuracy difference under battlefield conditions is negligible.

A fairer comparison would be between the Garand and the Gewehr (spell-check). semi-auto vs. bolt action...no contest.