How many StG-44s were used by German forces in the Ardennes? My impression is not very many, but the Americans did record encountering some assault units accompanying StuGs that were almost completely equipped with this weapon. A few propaganda shots showed Waffen SS troops wielding a StG-44. Were they issued in lieu of MP-40 in some cases?

I had always been under the impression that the Sturmtruppen that accompanied assualt guns had almost exclussivly used the StG-44.

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-Dustin

Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

just to make this clear under official German documentation the MP 43 was not the later MP 44, there was subtle design changes to make the difference. Sturmtruppen associated with assault guns..........ah no that would be regular Landser even in 1945 whatever was to be had in the form of infantry. STG's were incorporated more and more trying to faze out the machine Pistol 40 that we know of, especially on the Ost front.

think Martin got his answer already on the other page ..........

v/r E ~

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A minor mistake on my part, ive had a knack for calling the fast running infantry that follow assualt guns Stormtroopers.

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-Dustin

Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

yes i actually agree with chesehead121 (not in the terms of historical acuracy) but it ould be easier if it was like that

Actually, the MP43/1 has the most significant differences from the MP43, MP44 and StG44. The production order is as follows:
MKb42-series
MP43/1
MP43
MP44
StG44 (a few were marked MP45)

there was not a production difference between the MP 44 and the STG 44 as Germana documentation lists, it is one and the same weapon; it is also not the MP 45 either which is a different weapons system

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I never said the MP44 & StG44 were different from each other. The MP43/1 is the standout from them and the MP43.

There were MP45 marked weapons from this series. One known example is in private hands and was reviewed in the books listed below. It was made in the summer of '44. Thus, it was marked MP45 assuming the simplified features would be introduced in '45 production runs. The features weren't adopted and the StG44 order came about a few months later. I suggest you at least purchase and read some of the recently published books on the subject before attempting to play an RKI on a firearm forum. Owning the real thing helps even more.

Recomended:
the already mentioned Assault Rifles 1939-1945 by Pete Senich
Sturmgewehr! by Hans-Dieter Handrich
The Propaganda Photo Series Vol IV The MKb 42, MP43, MP44, and the Sturmgewehr 44

c

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Actual numbers issued are not known, possibly because records were later lost or destroyed. But a fair number were issued to Waffen-SS Panzergrenadiers and also certainly to the Fuhrer-Begleit Brigade. Certainly German propaganda made great play of the 'wonder weapon' ( it features prominently in the famous captured film shot at Poteau ) and it became a prized war trophy for US troops.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

remember the late war Deutsche Wochenschau footage ? plenty of them issued to Fallshirmtruppen. my friend for many years noted that his Rgt 43 in the 1st Infantrie Div also were equipped in some fashion on the Preußian front

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There is an excellent article in NOV 01 issue of Small Arms Review that discusses the combat performance of the 3rd & 5th FJ DIV during BOB.

I believe they still have copies left. http://www.smallarmsreview.com/images1/Vol5No2index.jpg

The 1st ID were involved going all the way back to the first MKb42(H) combat trials.

Actually, there also existed a Sturmgewehr-45, which was an even further simplified design. Even though parts for ca. 30 rifles were produced, it is highly unlikely that any StG-45 saw service before the end of the war.



Sincerely, D Evil

The StG-45 served as the basis for the German and Spanish weapons after the war, from CETME and Heckler and Koch.

The G3 bears much inner resemblance to the StG45.

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"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

Hi Eric,

One thing I don't understand. In the official US Army history, they reported that assault troops that clambered on the decks of the StuGs and came down to fight were liberally equipped with machine-pistols or StGs. They might be just Volksgrenadiers, but if memory serves, a StuG brigade has its own security detachment that theoretically should deploy to provide close security for the StuG.

The StG45 uses a totally different locking system. That's why I didn't mention it.

In the article I mentioned the 5 FJ DIV was given a StuG brigade and other arty elements. The 3 FJ DIV wasn't as fortunate. Instead, they received 3x as many StG44s than the 5th did. The 3rd ended up with fewer casualties and even stymied American relief attempts of Bastogne.

This is purely anecdotal, but surprising quantities of unfired 7.92kurz ammo still come to light in the Bastogne area, and I have a rusty MP44 magazine which was found at a farm outside the town.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Most likely that's from an FJ. The few SS units with StG44s only issued 1 per squad (replacing the MP40). That's why you only see an SS NCO carrying one in the famous Ardennes footage of burning American vehicles. Speaking of footage, anyone recall the SS King Tigers carrying FJs? I know at least one StG44 is visible.

Yes, that's Tiger '222' on its way to its fate at the Stavelot bridge.....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I thought Pz Gr squads have two machine pistols. Or is the weapon only issued to either squad leader or assistant squad leader?

The HEER squads did have two MP40s and weren't initially considered for equipping StG44s. After Hitler gave his blessings, the types of units deemed necessary to be so armed expanded to include PzGr units.
I don't know about SS PzGr squads. However they were originally armed, the few SS PzGr units that received StG44s only issued one per squad. That all changed in late '44-'45 and they issued them to whomever was there.

So far as I know, Hitler ordered to stop any assault rifle R&D. To by-pas this barrier, the new rifle become MP