Try WW2F's veteran subforum. SW Pacific Vet said that in his experience, the Japanese bonzai charge was foolish and they never had a chance against a well-placed 50 cal. HMG. Slaughtered like sheep was his expression.

Strange that they never figured that out from European experience during WWI.

You think they are doing a banzai attack against a .50??
You use banzai attacks were they won't expect it and not at a place where a grenade is much better...

To be honest there is more to the Japanese favour of bayonet tactics.

One could compare it to the American belief in Tank Destroyer tactics. Americans believed the tank shouldnt fight other thanks but that tanks should be engaged by specialized TD's..whether you believe this was good or not it was the belief at the time.

So too did Japan believe that the bayonet would be the dominate weapon of the Pacific campaign. Now before you go and dismiss this idea as "foolhardy" take a look at the Japanese situation. Fighting in Asia (esp. china) meant that Arm. tactics and major engagements like those in Europe between highly industrialized nations would not happen.

Japanese tactics and weapons like the Nambu and Knee mortar were designed with the idea that infantry would always be the primary weapon of the ground war.

Neither would there be a tremendous amount of HMG's and other fast firing weapons. The LMG, Artillery and major infantry engagements would be the norm. In that case the bayonet would be more than decisive.

Japanese soldiers also typically had more bayonet training than a NA or Euro would ever have thought possible. in fact Japanese infantry spent more time perfecting close combat and long marchs than any other subjects.

To a large degree these tactics bore fruit. Japanese troops, unlike many Allied ones also knew that, because they were a "foot" army, they were often short of supplies, both they and their supplies often followed on foot...so ammunition was not always in such great supply that they could be "generous" with its use.

While bushido plays a role its even deeper than that. Japanses infantry tried to cultivate "hara" (roughly translated to "guts"). In this way it was not an accident that Japanese troops seemed "fearless" in charging Allied positions. It was not an accident, it was intentional that Japanese troops tried to get into close combat as this is where thier strength really lay. Japanese troops endured incredibly physically demanding training that would be considered excessive to all but the most highly trained "commandos" of Western armies..all in the hopes of building "hara".

It was only as Japanese troops came up against better armed US and British troops that were armed with a proliferation of MG's of both a heavy and light caliber that the failure of these tactics really was "illuminated".

It seems foolish, and no doubt there was a real lack of imagination in charging a .50, but these tactics had proved successful earlier in the war and if left with few options it certainly offered a death that would be "grand".

I dont want to give the impression that the Japanese military did not realise or understand that they were at a disadvantage to better armed Western powers. They certainley were aware..but again appreciate thier position: they were an industrial nation but not with unlimited resources.

They realized that to fight Western powers the single most paramount need was a strong Navy and Air Force and think they succeeding in that. But this meant that things like tanks and the like were not possible and in many cases not fit for combat in the PTO.

Thus they relied on infantry on the ground ( as the resource of men they did have) and the most important weapon that resource has was the bayonet.

I wholeheartedly agree. Very well thought out.

Indeed the Japanese emphasized their land doctrine on infantry units, and without the support of heavy armor or a promised supply line, Japanese soldiers were often taught to endure hunger, thirst and pain to live off the land whenever possible to provide a self-sustaining army. Therefore rations of Japanese forces seem definitely meager in proportions compared to Western rations.

Training was also taken from a hard approach. My grandmother lived near the 7th District Army Headquarters in Hokkaido and often witnessed the training of soldiers herself. She once saw a drill sergeant bring out a langstroth beehive in front of the soldiers at attention and let loose all the bees. And throughout the whole session, the soldiers were not to move a single muscle as the bees swarmed around and stung them. Those that failed knew that even more pain would follow afterwards. I don't think testing the pain threshold was the norm in most IJA training but it certainly wasn't taken as unusual. After all, this was an organization that permitted officers to physically strike those of a lower rank.

Bayonets were an integral part of a IJA soldier's training, to the point where even a martial art was formed, called Jūkendō. In the Russo-Japanese War, to make up for the difference in height of the Russians and the Japanese, the latter had to improve their skill in close quarter combat. And as everyone knows, combat prior to the Pacific War meant that whatever the Japanese were going against were deemed "inferior" in terms of firepower and combat skill. This they learned the hard way in the Pacific where they were cut down before they could use their bayonets effectively. Soldiers back then were called 肉弾 nikudan. Literally translated to "human bullet". Because they didn't have any bullets to shoot, all they had left was to charge the enemy for one last effort.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in most cases were Banzai charges not done when ammo, supplies, etc were low or depleted?

Really depends on how many people are running th charge and if they "bottleneck" to be cut down like that.

Actually bayonet charges were not only used when out of ammo, but certainly this was a factor.

I recall in the book: Tales by Japanese Soldiers of a number of occasions..esp at night where Japanese infantry were told to empty their rifles!!! in preparation for night charge.

While this seems counter intuitive (and honestly i think its silly), but the idea was that no one would accidently or through fear fire a round early and alert the Brit forces of the eminent attack.

This was another technique used by Japanese inf to negate Allied superior firepower. Night bayonet attacks were in a strange way a good technique..when it worked..as trying to rush MG positions in the daytime wouldn't work.

There is much made of "Japanese suicide" attacks..but only in a few occasions were they truly intended to end the lives of the Japanese...the idea was to kill the enemy..even if the idea was technically flawed cause the enemy had many MG's. Really only on the island campaigns where it was clear there was no escape, no retreat and no hope for re-enforcement do you see what can fairly be called a "mass suicide by mg".

Its interesting though how we characterize the Japanese actions as "suicide" charges and when allied nations fight to the last man we think of it as a "heroic" last stand.

To me its a little like the idea that all Russian troops were simply feed into the German MG's in solid waves of human fodder. While this happened it really wasn't the norm. Its also a lot like the idea that every Tiger simply drove up killed 10 Shermans and went home.

What is amusing is how a few of these incidents have become so famous that we consider it the norm now.

That's what the veteran said. Hundreds of Japanese dead piled before their positions. Banzai charge was the standard response of sorts to default to when things went wrong for the Japanese. They believed in the bayonet, and they also believe in washing the shame of defeat away with your own blood.

Hanz,

This is reasonable doubt but in case of the Japanse Imperial Army, everything you read about human wave assaults actually were true. So often did they use this tactic that the Japanese commander in Guadacanal had to forbid it by formal order, and deny his subordinate commander's request for permission to charge--time and time again!

Massed human bayonet attacks was common on the Eastern Front for 1941 and thereafter occurred as relapses of a bad habit. The Japanese never realized that it was a bad habbit and kept on doing it til the very end.

Sorry Triple,

I tried to say that "they did occur"...however they really aren't the norm for the Japanese Campaign from the start. As I say in my post its really only on the island campaigns that you see these types of "suicide" charges. They occur in other theatres; such as in Burma campaign..but here they are a technique to overcome Allied superior firepower rather than to commit mass suicide.

As well on the Russian front im trying to make the point that not every battle/engagement involves Russians simply throwing their lives away, as human fodder. Again I freely admit it happens..but it leaves many the impression that Russian and Japanese soldiers are simply fodder that each and every time only rush MG's...this simply isn't true.

No more than to say that no Sherman ever got the better of a Tiger. This too is not true...though the impression persists and takes on a "its been said 100 times so its true and happens every time".

This simply isnt true.

In the case of the Russians, I agree. However, for IJA, massed bayonet charges remained to be a regular part of their tactical repertoire. Banzai charges were incessant, especially if the Japanese find the situation deteriorating. Numerous attacks recorded during Guadalcanal, Buna-Gona, Iwo, Okinawa, etc.

08: 314th HQ Intelligence Team

Story told by a Japanese American soldier caught in the Okinawa battle. Note the prevalence of banzai attacks and the lateness of this battle in chronology.

Thank you Karma for your insite into this. I was always fascinated with the Japanese ability to motivate themselves to the point of this type of attack. I think in the war on the Asian mainland these attacks were probably very effective and quite terrifying.
I often wonder to the mindset of being superior to those you are fighting against, close combat would be the ultimate proof of concept.

Because they were such lousy shots with all types of firearms.

Really? I think the many sailors killed by superb Japanese naval gunnery might have a different opinion.

My father was a veteran of the 1940 and 1941 campaigns. He had the luck to receive peacetime training in the German Wehrmacht before going to war. Once he demonstrated me how to use the 98K rifle and the bayonet storming an enemy entrenchment. First shot - fired from the shoulder - then reloaded - second shot - fired from the hip - then a thrust with the bayonet and the third enemy impaled. When I asked im if he ever used the bayonet he told me that he did it only once. Most soldiers avoided to come so close to the enemy and preferred to shoot.

I will not even start about how foolish a statement that is.

__________________
-Dustin

"Zey send zer hounds! zey to vill find only death!"

Well, it did generate a few chuckles I'm sure....

__________________
On the Plains of Hesitation
lies the blackend bones of countless millions
who, at the dawn of victory sat down to rest,
and resting died....
(author unknown-I wish it was me)

Too true.

__________________
-Dustin

"Zey send zer hounds! zey to vill find only death!"

I giggled

__________________
"Logos, Philos, Arete"

Nobody seems to have mentioned useful the bayonet was to the Japanese when dealing with nurses, Chinese civilians and wounded POWs.

Richie

"few meen are killed by the bayonet, however many are scared by it, Fix Bayonets at the onset of every engagement" Gen Patton

I must wonder if that tank with the bayonet was Patton personal tank

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The bayonet is a weapon that is out of date yet instills fear in all it is used against... fix bayonets at the onset of every battle

they even use babies...they throw them in the air and then catch them with a bayonet.

Where did you read that at????

__________________
-Dustin

"Zey send zer hounds! zey to vill find only death!"

some of my relatives who survived the war told me about it..im from the philippines..they did that to babies..just to sow terror on the locals so as to discourage them from helping american soldiers in hiding or local guerillas..they do it as an example..or just for the plain fun of it..or they skin you alive..the japanese were pretty inventive on killing people..much more inventive than the germans or any other axis nation

Thats just beyond sickening. All I can say.

__________________
-Dustin

"Zey send zer hounds! zey to vill find only death!"