I know the Thompson SMG was an extremely powerful weapon (Daniel Inouye said he blew a German's foot off with one bullet) but how accurate was it? Despite the fact the the massive kickback effects accuracy, how far could you sight and peg a target at?

I won't make any claims that a person could or should consider it as a "sniper" weapon, the sights for the M1929A1 were adjustable out to 600, yes 600 yards, and this was with the heavier bolt, and stiffer return spring which slowed the original rate of fire down from 1100 rounds per minute to about 600 rounds per which the military requested.

Here is a description of the sight set-up on the tested model, the 1929A1.

Foresight: blade.
Back sight: adjustable slide on leaf graduated 50-600 yards.
Open battle sight: (aperture in position with leaf lowered) sighted for 50 yards.

From:

Thompson Submachine Gun Data

Now, as the M1A1 Thompson came to the fore, the round remained the same, the barrel length remained the same, but the sights were NOT the same as the "powers that be" realized that the range for that pistol round was just "silly" even though it could get there.

The Thompson wasn't the "spray and pray" lead pump that other SMGs were.

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

This seems to be reasonable. However, one must keep in mind that the Thompson used a pistol round, and natrually they have a much shorter range than rifle rounds.

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Best Regards, Hufflepuff

True enough, but here is a portion of an interesting report (Philip B. Sharpe review of the M1928A1 Thompson from 1929):

"This .45 automatic pistol cartridge, in the arm designed for it, delivers about 810 foot per seconds velocity. In the 10 1/2-inch barreled Thompson it delivers about 925 f.p.s. Tests indicate that accuracy and penetration is quite respectable, even at the longer ranges. A single shot two feet from the muzzle, using the 230 grain bullet, tested on 3/4-inch yellow pine boards spaced one inch apart, ran through 6 3/4 boards. At 100 yards it would plough (sic) through six boards; at 200 yards through 5 1/4; at 300 yards, 4 1/2; at the 400 mark through four boards, and at 500 yards it could still stumble through 3 3/4 boards¾sufficient to cause very unpleasant sensations in the body of a recipient." [Page 1107]

This indicates that the "pistol round" in the longer barrel of the Thompson made the range and accuracy of the same round a much different "ball of wax" than it was in the pistol for which it was designed.

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

Oh yes. 9mm fired out of a SMG is very different form a pistol. LII body armor can defeat 9mm bullets fired from a pistol; only IIIA can take SMG rounds of the same caliber. Longer barrel gives more velocity.

I think that 'accuracy' of WWII submachineguns is a moot point due to the blowback design and in the case of the Thompson, a very heavy bolt assembly flying back and forth.

But rather than guess, I've turned to C Shore's contemporary book 'With British Snipers To The Reich' which contains his impressions of firing many weapons. He rates the absolute best aimed fire ( in well-trained hands ) as being 100yds from the Sten/MP40 and somewhat less from the Thompson.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Stink 600 yards? I'd have a hard time spotting a target at that range, let alone adjust for wind, yadda yadda...

It's interesting... if you look up the Deadliest warrior episode you can see a former Italian mafia member shooting a Thompson and it kind of give you an idea of the accuracy. Although at close range, he did more then enough damage without aiming down the scope.

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Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it- Sun Tzu

Hello Guys!
Thompson's Accuracy as I noticed from Films &Reports is not very much good in medium &far Ranges!! (See Machines of War-Machine guns Report from National Geographic in Youtube = There is a lote of Talk about Thompson!)

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Spec Ops Motto 1=100

The reason the Thompson has a "low accuracy" is that the troops weren't trained to use the Thompson at 600 yards, they were trained to fire at medium to close range (less than 100 yards) and fire in short bursts to conserve ammo.

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Best Regards, Hufflepuff

Has anyone here fired a Thompson?

Sorry ,but Thompson has no more range than 200 Yards !!
It uses 9mm or 45ACP (These are Pistol's Calibers!!)

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Spec Ops Motto 1=100

You really should read other posts before making claims in "SHOUT" form, bold type and Caps don't make them true!

Here is a portion of an interesting report (Philip B. Sharpe review of the M1928A1 Thompson from 1929):

"This .45 automatic pistol cartridge, in the arm designed for it, delivers about 810 foot per seconds velocity. In the 10 1/2-inch barreled Thompson it delivers about 925 f.p.s. Tests indicate that accuracy and penetration is quite respectable, even at the longer ranges. A single shot two feet from the muzzle, using the 230 grain bullet, tested on 3/4-inch yellow pine boards spaced one inch apart, ran through 6 3/4 boards. At 100 yards it would plough (sic) through six boards; at 200 yards through 5 1/4; at 300 yards, 4 1/2; at the 400 mark through four boards, and at 500 yards it could still stumble through 3 3/4 boards¾sufficient to cause very unpleasant sensations in the body of a recipient." [Page 1107]

This certainly indicates that the "pistol round" in the longer barrel of the Thompson made the range and accuracy of the same round a much different "ball of wax" than it was in the pistol for which it was designed.

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

Clint is right there is no need to yell and scream.

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For want of a nail the shoe was lost, for the want of a shoe the horse was lost, for the want of a horse the rider was lost, for the want of a rider the battle was lost, For want of a battle the kingdom was lost, and all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Robert,

Obviously you don't understand physics very well. A bullet takes as long to hit the ground as it does to drop one from a stand still. FPS is what counts, not if it's fired from a pistol or rifle. If you have a pistol that fires at 3640 FPS it has the same range as a rifle caliber round such as a .223. You clearly underestimate the intelligence of the members of this forum too (We know they are pistol calibers!!).

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In war there is no prize for the runner-up.-
General Omar Bradley

A semi-auto yes. At 100 yards the -average- solider would be extremely lucky to hit a human sized target in the middle of combat. On a target range, longer distance shots get easier. Firing auto in bursts was also used, in addition to saving ammo, because after 5 shots or more (depending on the shooter's strength) the barrel will climb and the solider is shooting into the sky.
For better long range(well...med. range) accuracy using a full auto small caliber firearm, the M2 carbine would be a better choice. While it won't hit as hard (a 110gr bullet vs. a 165-230 gr bullet) the .30 Carbine round has a flatter trajectory and more velocity, 200+fps more, than the .45ACP which makes it able to hit it's target at a longer range. Recoil is also far more managable.

I can imagine it would take some real strength to hold the barrel down, plus aim.

The Cutts compensator was a great aid in that barrel climb problem, I believe it is covered in a post here I put up on the history of the Thompson. I'll look for a link to it if you like.

Here is the link and a section for your perusal.

The accuracy of the sub-machine gun is decidedly interesting. File records of the Auto-Ordnance firm indicate that in a Mann rest test fired at Hartford, Conn., May 2, 1921, the mean radius using a Remington Standard 230 grain bullet at 100 yards ran 1.89 inches. At 200 yards mean radius was 4.92 inches; at 300 yards 7.63 inches at 400 yards it increased to 18.31; while at 500 yards it jumped to 20.45 inches. Accordingly, one can assume that the accuracy of the more or less spent bullets is quite uncontrolled at the longer ranges. This writer suggests that the effective range of the weapon is under 300 yards.

At 200 yards,, using the gun from the sitting position, I experienced no difficulty in placing deliberate fire in "killing" portions of the standard Colt Police Pistol "silhouette" target. It is safe to state that an officer could readily "get his man" at that range. which is well out of normal revolver range.

Further factory figures of Mann rest tests fired at 200 yards on June 10, 1922, include six lots of ammunition, commercial and Government. One lot of war ammunition showed an extreme vertical deviation of 37.6 inches as compared with 18.04 inches average for the other five lots. Even with this poor lot included, the tests show an average extreme horizontal deviation of 15.9
inches; extreme vertical average of 21.3 inches; and an average mean radius of 5.8 inches.
　
Goto:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/PSharpe1.html

Remember, this was with the Cutts compensator installed, and not under combat conditions which would certainly make a difference.

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

Thompson FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

PS is it true that fatter bullets like the .45 are more likely to ricochet that other slim rifle bullets? I heard this somewhere but I don't know if there's any degree of truth to it...I think it all depends on the angle at which the bullet strikes the target that can determine a ricochet...

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Best Regards, Hufflepuff

Heavier bullets can push through things better, but any round that hits something else in flight will deflect.

Frontal area will have as much to do with trajectory as actual bullet weight. Combine lower velocity, larger frontal area, and bullet weight and you will start seeing a quicker degradation of terminal ballistics.
A .45 cal slug with a conical point would probably retain more terminal speed and energy than a standard ball type round given the same bullit weight and velocity.
A 230 round nose, ball type bullit at 900 fps will slow faster than a boat tail conical bullit of the same weight, diameter and velocity.
A 230 grain .30 cal conical bullit will fly better than the .45 ca ball and probably the conical bullit as well. In a perfect vacuum where wind resistance is not a factor, there should be no difference given all other factors are equal.
On a range in FL I fired a Thompson semi-auto (civilian model) at 50, 75, and 100 yards. I could easily group shots into a silloette target in the head @ the 50 and 75 yard marks, at 100 yrds, it would have been a chance shot in real life. Although body shots were easy to place at that range.
At ranges over that distance, a smart leader tells his rifleman with an '03 Springfield or M-1 Garand to do the dirty work. My $.02

The Thompson was never renowned for its accuracy, mainly because of the heavy recoil and resulting barrel rise. However, for an SMG(.45) it did pretty darn well. The Cutts compensator was not on the m1a1, as it was being mass produced during war years as cheaply as possible(not saying stamped steel or anything but it still retained its reliability in the field).

Yes, I have. I shot both the fully automatic and semi automatic version. I own the Model 1927 Deluxe. Mine has the 16" barrel on it. I took it to a 100 yrd range, off the bench on a sandbag, I shot 4" groups. I could'nt believe it. I could actually see the rounds hitting the target. I had to aim very high to actually make contact on the paper. It was fun.

Mike

There's a semi-auto version? I never knew. Good shots too XD. And really I don't think the Army cared about accuracy (although from what it seems, they got it). These were officer's weapons. They didn't have to shoot 600 yards to pick off a sniper from a church tower, they had people doing that with Springfields (just watch Saving Private Ryan!). They didn't have to shoot even 300 yards, they had people with M1's doing that! They had to keep the enemy's head down from about 5 feet away while someone with a brain and a knife beat them down. Though on the original subject, I believe mostly officers would use them and they would be highly trained. I could be wrong.

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To the German Commander-- Nuts.

-- The American Commander

The Thompson has a lot of kick to it, but overall it is a good gun. As long as you don't empty the magazine all in one pull of the trigger, its very accurate at short range. If you want to shoot it at a target at a long range, you have to aim the gun a bit higher to correct the trajectory of the bullet. If you shoot two or three bullets at a time, then that improves the accuracy other than keeping the trigger down

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