Consider this: no nazism, no Hitler, no Himmler, no Jews/Gipsy/Black ppl harassment, no SS assassins, etc etc

But, yet, a military dicatorship ruling since 1934, just after Paul von Hindenburg's death.

So their reason for war would be, say, recovering the territories lost in the Treaty of Versailles.

So we are in August, 31st, 1939 and Germarny is ready to invade Poland with the excuse of retaking access to East Prussia. Consider that there was no Anchluss (with Austria/1938) and no Sudenteland overtaking.

What would have happened? (hint: the point here is that there would be no Hitler to disturb the German Armed Forces

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Me-109 K14 ROCKS!

This is a good post. I am seeing the French and British getting more aggressive with Germany because with Hitler, the propaganda machine was in overtime and made the world think, successfully, that Germany was armed to the teeth and had no qualms about using her forces. Without Hitler, I would see a very conservative and traditional Wehrmacht. yes, they did defy the versailles 100,000 man army limitation but the country was divided and battling itself between the anarchists, christians, communists etc. So the Allies could have successfully attacked Germany and the German Generals knew it. Even with Hitler, that was their main concern. It was Hitler that pushed it beyond the limitations of logical thinking. There would not have been a world war. My opinion.

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Would there still be a pact with Stalin?

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I am English and proud of it...Europe dose not need a another State, nuts to the EU.

Yes, there would be the Fritz-Molotov pact (name a better foreign minister to replace Ribbentrop )

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Me-109 K14 ROCKS!

Von Neurath.

If no nazism, where would the aggression come from. No nazis = no war. Finito. Kein nazis, kein Krieg!

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If no Nazis, then perhaps the Bolsheviks might take power in Germany?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

More likely the Social Democrats or the Christian Democrats. Read your Thomans Mann.

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I concur

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I don't see a war happening anywhere in the time frame of the actual war. The generals mostly vacillated on pushing the other European powers very far before the war; it was Hitler that was driving the German train through the Rhineland, the Sudeten and the Anschluss, not the Army. By 1938, he was more or less giving directives for the General Staff to flesh out and they had little to no input into national policy, as they had previously done, especially in the later years of WWI.
Unless they were able to produce someone with the personality to drive the country toward war in the manner of a Hitler, they would have faced strong opposition to forcing a war until well into the mid 1940s. Most of the upper command of OKH was against the early moves during and before the war and OKH was not even made aware of the intent to actually invade Poland until about a week before the event, which by and large they were against.

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Best Regards,
JW

There would have been an inevitable clash to root out the communists from Germany. If not by Hitler than someone else in the military. Someone else in the Freikorps as Hitler could have remained in jail. The war may have been more limited than with Hitler.

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Coir a glaive

Nemo me impune lacessit

Those kind of things are called either police actions, it wouldn't even reach the stage of a civil war.

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I am finding this one a bit tricky and yet interesting so I will have to go with my gut instinct no Hitler no war.

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I am English and proud of it...Europe dose not need a another State, nuts to the EU.

If in the original thread question and without Hitler and the Nazis, Germany unites somehow, even under Communism, they would eventually want revenge over the Treaty of Versailles, and Poland would be it's logical victim, considering Poland until 1919 had neve been an independent nation (If incorrect please correct me), Germans would have insisted on a total re-unification and re-establishment of it's border.

Germans at that point of time are a Martial Nation, It's Millitary is it's strength and prestige, it would eventually defied the Treaty of Versailles and build up it's military and eventually invaded Poland, with full consent and cooperation with the Soviet Union, Poland in any regards was at that point in time was a doomed nation.

And with the western nations, with a military alliance between Communist Germany and The Soviet Union, Western Europe would have not come to Polands defense.

Germany wouldn't unite under communism, Marx even though German, wasn't able to get the revolution to start in Germany where he believed it would start. All the conditions were there and with support, some German Navy personnel and some union workers, they were crushed by the oppostion as they say, easily in Henley. Whether NSDAP or Militarists they would be defeated. What is interesting is that the scapegoating of the Jewish people was alive and well in Poland at the same time as the rise of NSDAP. Would have thought Hitler would have convened a Pact with Poland against The Soviet Union and instigated unrest amongst the Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Courlands, Latvians to throw the Soviet Union in chaos.

Yes but of course they would have to get past the Danzig thing and settle the Prussian issue. It remains to be pondered how many Anschluss's similar to Austria could have been affected, targeting Sudetenland, Prussia, and Alsace Lorraine. All this fifth column action while the Wehrmacht rebuilt.

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Coir a glaive

Nemo me impune lacessit

If Hitler wasn't there to "disturb" the German Armed Force, then who would be there to modernize the German Armed Force? Hitler should be given the credit for the early German victories. If instead of Hitler, some average militarist was in command, then Germany would have been broken once more. Hitler adopted new tactics (despite criticisms), reinvented warfare, and therefore won the early victories.
So the answer to your question is: if Hitler wasn't in command, Germany most likely would have started a small scale war, ended up losing more territory, and possibly be divided into many states.

Ignore this one.

Hinderburg would probably have stayed in power for another three years. Th equestion is what would have happened after 1936.... But let me take it a little further: no jewish persecution, no Einstein to the U.S. no atomic bomb !!! It would have totaly face the face of the world. In fact without a war in Europe I doubt Pearl Harbour would even have happened.

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And yet strangely they were at that point the largest political party in Germany, would the Friekorps be so bold to attack Communist meetings and groups without the Nazi's and all the ecco-polit-military backing that they gained, plus no establishment of the SturmAbteilun or ShutzSaffel, no enabling act etc, etc..... There are two things to remember about the NSDAP, Without Hitler the Nazis were nothing, without the Nazis Hitler was Nothing, no other leader in the NSDAP could have by force of will would have gotten the Nazis as far as they did. Plus to finish off there was no other party big enough to take on the German Communist Party, fully backed by Stalin and the Soviet Union and his Communist Regime.

Well we are hypotheical in this example and I was thinking along the lines of the Hitler/Röhm conflict that some other organization not called NSDAP but with similar goals and ideology could have filled that spot on the political field. Whether it be lead by someone from the Freikorps or in the Military, if against communists then perhaps an owner from Industry.

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Coir a glaive

Nemo me impune lacessit

The flip side is, that without communist Russia, Germany would have not been able to obtain crucial military arms and supplies, after WW1.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Don't you mean training or do you mean a place for German's to manufacture their arms? Although I thought that was Denmark and Sweden. Please elaborate.



Or were you referring to the captured Soviet Weapons by the Wehrmacht.

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Coir a glaive

Nemo me impune lacessit

After WW1 Russia was the only European country ( mostly ) which held friendly relations with Germny, this is in part due to Lenin and his revolution..... Just one example: Germany's airforce was built in Russia. Officers like Guderian went to officer school in Khazan, Russia. Commerce between the two countries flourished.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Impossible if you stay true to the original thread question, there is no Hitler, so no Hitler and defininatley no Nazi Party, who would be the logical main political power that could unite Germany, the strongest political party was the Communist Party, alright i'll grant you one thing the strength of the Communist could unify all the right wing parties into one but it as per thread question not the NSDAP.

As I mentioned, U boats were worked on in Scandanvia, The Russians provided a training ground for the german Tankers and Airborne(expositions). Those men sliding off the wings that you commonly see in file footage of Soviet archives. But.....The Weapons were German design, you alluded that they were Russia, please give some examples of this.


Well NSDAP is just a name that Hitler used to rally the hungry. Given the economic condtions due to the First World War and global economic depression, There could have been any number of groups that could have solidifed a right based group with its own set of ideals for blame and where are germans going. As many interviewed have said "Joined the NSDAP because they gave us bread" "It may not seem important now but it meant alot in those days" The same occurence can be related to a non NSDAP group by name but in ideology. Industrialists and the Military could easily win support of the poor and unemployed if they fed them. There will always be an extreme left communism and an extreme right fascism in the world history and arena of politics. Communism is alive and well in South America, and there are some 80+ dictatorships around the world, granted not all of them Right

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Coir a glaive

Nemo me impune lacessit

Not at all, what I said was that they were built in Russia, in secrecy. I never said that they were Russian, or of Russian design.

And yes the training was done in Russia, also in secrecy.


A secret aviation school

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler