What if Nazi Germany unleashed all of its Superweapons..?

akash · #1 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 10:35 AM

Just think......What if Nazi Germany unleashed all of its Superweapons..?

What if Russia Supported Hitler......
I have made up a story on this have a look...:-)

As 1940 finally approached the British after learning the news of the Russian invasion of Finland immiediately dispatched military equipment and military aid to assist the Finns in their defence against the Communist threat. The British knew that such an action would mean that the Soviet Union was going to respond with war and gambled by approving the decision. The day came when British troops arrived in Norway before the German invasion and crossed the Border to assist the finns. Upon the next day Stalin upon hearing of the news that Great Britain is fighting with Finland against the Soviet Union he declared war upon Great Britain. Now Germany and the Soviet Union had a chance of destroying their foes along with the sucessful completion of the pact with other axis countries.Now in the axis alliance consisted of the following : Rumania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Japan, Italy, Russia, Germany,Spain and other countries. Stalin pressed for fast completion of the military reforms initiated in 1939 which will modernize his army. As part of the agreement the Germans had with the Soviet Union in 1939 under the non-agression pact they both became allies (economically,etc....) and Germany deployed a few SS divisions to Finland to help repulse the finnish/British counterattack.Great Britain along with France was shocked at the results of their decision to send military aid to Finland. Nevertheless the British will fight to the very last man to preserve democracy and freedom. The German scientists working on the Atomic and Hydrogen bomb were able to convince the German government for massive funding along with the German rocket scientists. Now the Germans were on the fasttrack to making the atomic bomb along with their American and Allied counterparts. The Soviet Union took an interest in the Atomic Bomb and sent a few of its finest scientists to work with the German scientists in creating the soviet unions first atomic bomb. As the day approached for the invasion of the low countries the German troops finally beaten back the counterattack with the help of soviet troops. As the Soviet Union was concerned with a possible counterattack or reprisal against the Soviet Union it could not help out in the invasion of the low countries on a major scale and rather had to assist with minor amounts of troops and equipment but only later on in the campaign against the Democratic citadel of France and Great Britain could they spare massive amounts of troops. The Germans high command agreed with Stalins government of the handing over of control of Finland to Soviet Control. The German troops launched an invasion of the low countries and also invaded Norway and Sweden. The invasion of sweden was a gamble but Hitler knew that because the USSR was now his loyal ally they would supply Germany with more iron ore than sweden could supply. The invasion of Norway was a complete sucess as the Luftwaffe , Kriegsmarine and Heer provided close co operation and were able to defeat the joint British/Norwegian garrison in Norway. During the invasion of Norway the Soviet Union was able to capture the monarchs and detain them in Moscow for interrogation. Next came the invasion of the low countries with full priority the invasion was a stunning sucess due to the quickness of the German advance and the intimidation factor that the USSR/Germany gave over the allies. The allied morale was horribly shaken with the loss of Belgium, Denmark, and all the other low countries. Next came France's turn to fall. The fall of France came swiftly and quietly as the German army in cooperation with the reformed RKKA dealt the BEF and the allied forces devastating casulaties all within a few weeks. The only remaining holdout in France after the fall of France itself was the port of Dunkirk which was the remaining city in BEF and Allied Troops hands. The Allied Generals predicted that they could only sucessfully evacuate 25,000 troops sucessfully out of the 375,000 troops remaining. The day came and the German panzers with the luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine attacked their prey relatively unscathed by the RAF. It was also the first time that the Germans employed the Dornier 19 and Junkers 89 "Ural Bombers". The bombers inflicted such horrible casulaties on the allied troops that only 250 troops could be sucessfully evacuated. The port of dunkirk was a scene of horror ,and the ravages of war as abandoned equipment lay scattered by the thousands among parts of bodies and other material such as clothing, shot down airplanes and other material. The Dunkirk evactuation caused the British to expect an immenent Axis invasion. Stalin and Hitler met in Brandenburg to discuss the invasion of the United kingdom and it was agreed as such that the Germans would receive the entire United Kingdom and North America to go under German control.

T. A. Gardner · #2 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 12:10 PM

Germany wasn't going to get a workable nuclear weapon for at least 15 to 20 years, possibly longer, from where they were in 1940 on research. The reasons for this were:

Their initial reactor design called for unenriched uranium reacting in a tank of heavy water. To make this work they needed a high concentration of heavy water available at the time to them only from Norway. The company there making the stuff would have required about 10 years just to produce the required amount the Germans needed. Even then, the concentration likely would still have been too low.
Worse yet, their reactor design used small 1 kg blocks of uranium strung into "necklaces" using what was essentially bailing wire. The geometry of the uranium was unlikely to produce a sustained reaction as it was largely random in nature. This would have required the Germans to completely redesign their reactor after its initial failure to operate as expected.
Since we are now looking at somewhere around a decade into the process and the Germans barely have a working reactor, a step necessary to actually understand how the fission process works, they will require another couple of years research once it is running just to determine how much material a bomb requires.
Next, the Germans will need to enrich their uranium or, discover plutonium as the US already has. Either way they will need to dump roughly their entire GDP for a year or two into sufficent facilities to manufacture either the 98%+ enriched uranium or plutonium (breeder reactors) and sepertion facilities to reach the same purity.
The US dumped the equivalent of several years of the German GDP into their program in 1939 - 41 and had facilities producing the necessary material at breakneck speed. Oh, the US also had a working reactor prior to the war so they were far ahead of the game compared to the Germans right off.
Making matters worse, the Germans have a shortage of scientists and physicists available for research. Most of the decent ones left Germany pre-war due to Nazi politics and oppression.
Soviet help at the time would have been minimal. The Soviets were even further behind in the nuclear weapons game. They caught up post war through esponiage.
So, at the earliest, the Germans might have a nuclear weapon in the mid 50's 10 to 15 years behind the US. If the US didn't use theirs the Germans are also unlikely to even know the US has a stockpile of weapons and serveral delivery systems in place.

I won't even bother to poke holes in the rest of the scenario.

Slipdigit · #3 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 01:19 PM

I feel pretty certain they did "unleash" all their "superweapons." They still lost.

bigfun · #4 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 01:41 PM

Couldn't have said it any better myself Slip!

TiredOldSoldier · #5 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 03:29 PM

Must agree with Slip, the only weapons the Germans had and did not use was nerve gas, as nobody, not even Hitler, dared to open that Pandora box again.

Joe · #6 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 04:10 PM

nazi akash

I did not even bother reading your post, the title does it for me.

None of the Super weapons would have altered the war. In fact some of them (Ratte!) might have shortened it.

brndirt1 · #7 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiredOldSoldier

Must agree with Slip, the only weapons the Germans had and did not use was nerve gas, as nobody, not even Hitler, dared to open that Pandora box again.

I too agree with the Slipdigit, and the only "superweapon" they actually did try to use (V-2) was expensive and ineffective. Germany dumped almost the same amount of money into that boondoogle as America spent on the Manhattan Project producing its atomics. The V-2 is the only known weapon system that killed more humans in production than it did in application.

As per their gases, remember that my own filing system really needs to be seen to appreciated! A piece of data here, linked to a piece of data there, and then forgotten as to the link later that day. But I did find this stuff, focusing on nerve agent business, and chemical weapons in general. The tabun nerve agent was developed in the mid-thirties at IG Farben while they were searching for a better pesticide (this research eventually also led to Zyclon B), and this was when they still had close ties and were sharing data with DuPont and DOW here in America. I believe the DuPont family and Thyssens held shares in each others companies, and Edsel Ford sat on the board of IG Farben America! Who knew what who knew? The Nazis couldn't "risk" it if they guessed wrong. What if they "mass produced" theirs only to find the American ability to mass produce this chemical far exceeded their own? That is a "no win situation" for the Axis, and I am sure the Japanese (through the Nazis) feared the same when it came to chemical, biological, or nerve agents.

Under the Nazi ten years of control of production at IG Farben about "only" 12,000 tons of tabun were actually produced for Germany, but DuPont knew the "formula", and had vastly superior production abilities if called upon. Even though DuPont's internal records from the time seem to indicate only a few thousand tons of the tabun agent were produced and stockpiled in America. The nerve agent sarin was developed while the two companies were "separated by war"; but chemists on both sides knew how good the others were.

They (Nazis) couldn’t risk that the DuPont chemists hadn’t already discovered sarin and with their massive production capabilities, also produced and stored sarin as well as tabun. And let’s not forget that the Nazis really only managed to manufacture several hundred pounds of sarin before the Allies ran them to ground and put the whole system to an end.

One must also not neglect the fact that on December 2nd, 1943 the Luftwaffe bombed the port of Bari in Italy, and released over 100 tons of mustard gas which was awaiting unloading of a Liberty ship, this was being stockpiled in Europe "just in case". The same "stockpiling" of chemical weapons was probably occuring in the PTO, since the US was fully aware of the Japanese use of chemical weapons in China. Since it was never bombed, or used, it could be just "held" on the QT. Fortunately most of this 100 tons at Bari in '43 burned off in the fires, and so fewer were affected than if it had just been "released" intact.

This was the "new and improved" mustard gas, not the same as the WW1 version, but a better and quicker version (nitrogen rather than sulfur based), so now the victim smelled something like garlic rather than rotten eggs. The German chemists were also fully aware that the US had (at the end of WW1) developed an even more "sneaky" gas based on arsenic, under the name "Lewisite". "Lewisite" is rather unique in that it can be deadly in both low respiration (like cholorine gas) and skin contact quantities (like mustard gas), and it has the added "benefit" of being pleasant to the olfactory nerves; it smells like geraniums! Two or three deep breaths first enjoying and then identifying the odor, and you did yourself in. Don’t forget that soman was only discovered and produced at laboratory levels by Richard Kuhn in 1944, and if the sarin was only produced in those few hundreds of pounds, and the Nazis knew about it for that a much longer time, how much soman could they have "mass produced" if the had even tried in that limited time span? Sarin was discovered in 1938 and is properly known as isopropyl methyl phosphoro-flouridate. One of the original nerve gases, it was found to be exceptionally hard to manufacture and was thus never mass produced. Only a pilot plant existed when the war came to an end. Soman was discovered in 1944 and was the third and last of the German nerve gases. Known to science as pinacolyl methyl phosphoro-flouridate, and just as, if not more complicated to produce as sarin this gas was never taken beyond the laboratory.

As to why Hitler didn't even use it in the death throes of the Nazi regime, he was more or less positive the allies had retaliatory gas stockpiles, the Bari Italy bombing of '43 assured him he was correct. As a gassing victim himself in the "Great War", he knew the effects even when limited. Now he couldn’t even be sure that the Soviets hadn’t also been receiving massive quantities of gas bombs and shells (of unknown content) in the Lend-Lease shipments; over 90% of which made ports for USSR use. Add in that Hitler and the Nazis knew full well that every allied soldier was equipped with a gas mask (whether it was thrown away or not), and we also had developed paper "gas detectors" for our soldiers to wear on their arms to warn of miniscule amounts of gas in the air. They changed color, and there were even versions applied to the wings of aircraft which flew low and fast over the contested lands and read if there was any gas present when the airplanes returned to base.

Perhaps when it got to that point of even desparation, he (Hitler) had no way of instigating the use of gases he actually did have, in even limited quantities against his foes, and that was also a hindering factor. He was unable to access the stockpiles he had (or used to have), he was unable to deliver them, and he was "commanding" phantom divisions by that time as well! Even if he had ordered their use, it would have been for naught. If he could have I am sure he would have.

Devilsadvocate · #8 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nazi_akash

Just think......What if Nazi Germany unleashed all of its Superweapons..?

What if Russia Supported Hitler......
I have made up a story on this have a look...:-)

As 1940 finally approached the British after learning the news of the Russian invasion of Finland immiediately dispatched military equipment and military aid to assist the Finns in their defence against the Communist threat. The British knew that such an action would mean that the Soviet Union was going to respond with war and gambled by approving the decision. The day came when British troops arrived in Norway before the German invasion and crossed the Border to assist the finns. Upon the next day Stalin upon hearing of the news that Great Britain is fighting with Finland against the Soviet Union he declared war upon Great Britain. Now Germany and the Soviet Union had a chance of destroying their foes along with the sucessful completion of the pact with other axis countries.Now in the axis alliance consisted of the following : Rumania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Japan, Italy, Russia, Germany,Spain and other countries. Stalin pressed for fast completion of the military reforms initiated in 1939 which will modernize his army. As part of the agreement the Germans had with the Soviet Union in 1939 under the non-agression pact they both became allies (economically,etc....) and Germany deployed a few SS divisions to Finland to help repulse the finnish/British counterattack.Great Britain along with France was shocked at the results of their decision to send military aid to Finland. Nevertheless the British will fight to the very last man to preserve democracy and freedom. The German scientists working on the Atomic and Hydrogen bomb were able to convince the German government for massive funding along with the German rocket scientists. Now the Germans were on the fasttrack to making the atomic bomb along with their American and Allied counterparts. The Soviet Union took an interest in the Atomic Bomb and sent a few of its finest scientists to work with the German scientists in creating the soviet unions first atomic bomb. As the day approached for the invasion of the low countries the German troops finally beaten back the counterattack with the help of soviet troops. As the Soviet Union was concerned with a possible counterattack or reprisal against the Soviet Union it could not help out in the invasion of the low countries on a major scale and rather had to assist with minor amounts of troops and equipment but only later on in the campaign against the Democratic citadel of France and Great Britain could they spare massive amounts of troops. The Germans high command agreed with Stalins government of the handing over of control of Finland to Soviet Control. The German troops launched an invasion of the low countries and also invaded Norway and Sweden. The invasion of sweden was a gamble but Hitler knew that because the USSR was now his loyal ally they would supply Germany with more iron ore than sweden could supply. The invasion of Norway was a complete sucess as the Luftwaffe , Kriegsmarine and Heer provided close co operation and were able to defeat the joint British/Norwegian garrison in Norway. During the invasion of Norway the Soviet Union was able to capture the monarchs and detain them in Moscow for interrogation. Next came the invasion of the low countries with full priority the invasion was a stunning sucess due to the quickness of the German advance and the intimidation factor that the USSR/Germany gave over the allies. The allied morale was horribly shaken with the loss of Belgium, Denmark, and all the other low countries. Next came France's turn to fall. The fall of France came swiftly and quietly as the German army in cooperation with the reformed RKKA dealt the BEF and the allied forces devastating casulaties all within a few weeks. The only remaining holdout in France after the fall of France itself was the port of Dunkirk which was the remaining city in BEF and Allied Troops hands. The Allied Generals predicted that they could only sucessfully evacuate 25,000 troops sucessfully out of the 375,000 troops remaining. The day came and the German panzers with the luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine attacked their prey relatively unscathed by the RAF. It was also the first time that the Germans employed the Dornier 19 and Junkers 89 "Ural Bombers". The bombers inflicted such horrible casulaties on the allied troops that only 250 troops could be sucessfully evacuated. The port of dunkirk was a scene of horror ,and the ravages of war as abandoned equipment lay scattered by the thousands among parts of bodies and other material such as clothing, shot down airplanes and other material. The Dunkirk evactuation caused the British to expect an immenent Axis invasion. Stalin and Hitler met in Brandenburg to discuss the invasion of the United kingdom and it was agreed as such that the Germans would receive the entire United Kingdom and North America to go under German control.

Now this scenario takes place on which planet, again?

Slipdigit · #9 (**permalink**) December 5th, 2008, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nazi_akash

Just think......What if Nazi Germany unleashed all of its Superweapons..?

What if Russia Supported Hitler......
I have made up a story on this have a look...:-)

As 1940 finally approached the British after learning the news of the Russian invasion of Finland immiediately dispatched military equipment and military aid to assist the Finns in their defence against the Communist threat.
...

The Dunkirk evactuation caused the British to expect an immenent Axis invasion. Stalin and Hitler met in Brandenburg to discuss the invasion of the United kingdom and it was agreed as such that the Germans would receive the entire United Kingdom and North America to go under German control.

I went back to the first post and actually read more of the comment than the reference to "Superweapons." Apologies for not doing so before my first post.

Akash, what TV shows are you watching to get this from?

WotNoChad? · #10 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 12:26 AM

nazi akash,
read the first sentence and thought a spell checker might help.

cheers,

JCFalkenbergIII · #11 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 12:38 AM

"nazi_akash". With the word "Nazi" as part of his member name Im not surprised.

~~AmonMauser~~ · #12 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCFalkenbergIII

"nazi_akash". With the word "Nazi" as part of his member name Im not surprised.

you clearly have a bias against the German military.

lwd · #13 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmonMauser

you clearly have a bias against the German military.

Your observation is not supported by the facts at least as far as I can see. He does, as do many indeed most of us, have at least an apparent prejudice vs Nazi's and their symps.

bigfun · #14 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 01:47 AM

here we go!

Slipdigit · #15 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmonMauser

you clearly have a bias against the German military.

JC's been lurking about the forum for quite a while now. It is not a bias against the German military that he has, but rather the form of government that directed it and it's accompanying baggage called the Final Solution. They were successful and unsuccessful in a myriad of ways and produced some outstanding weapons (MG-42 comes to mind) and some real dogs (Ferdinand), but so did all the other beligerants.

I live in the South where there is a large number of people who espouse the "Lost Cause" where the American Civil War* is concerned and claim that the only reason the South lost the war was because we were overwhelmed by the productivity of the North. While partly true, the fact remains that the South inadequately prepared for the war and made broad assumptions about their enemy that were not accurate. Pretty much the same could said for the German Army. They underestimated their enemy and their abiltity to wage war against this enemy.

*aka The War of Southern Independence, The Great Unplesantries of 1861-1865 and War of Northern Aggression. Wars are named by the winners.

JCFalkenbergIII · #16 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 03:38 AM

Thanks Jeff

.I hate the Nazis. And I have the highest respect for the German people. I can sepearte the two. Unlike some others who can't. And it is the site owner's policy to not allow people who have names containing the names of Hitler and other prominent Nazis or the word Nazi. 99% of the time those who do have member names containing such are "Discharged" from this site. And for good reason.

T. A. Gardner · #17 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmonMauser

you clearly have a bias against the German military.

I don't. I have an appreciation for accuracy in the historical record.

~~AmonMauser~~ · #18 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCFalkenbergIII

Thanks Jeff

. I hate the Nazis. And I have the highest respect for the German people. I can sepearte the two. Unlike some others who can't. And it is the site owner's policy to not allow people who have names containing the names of Hitler and other prominent Nazis or the word Nazi. 99% of the time those who do have member names containing such are "Discharged" from this site. And for good reason.

you hate the average Wehrmacht soldier who was sent by his country and fulfilled his pledge? my friend you are one of a kind. My uncle fought the Nazis and he has respect for that military and the people who served in it even though they could have killed him.

JCFalkenbergIII · #19 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by AmonMauser

you clearly have a bias against the German military.

Just keep saying that. No one but yourself thinks so. But using what you think is logic it looks like you are the only one with a biased view.

~~AmonMauser~~ · #20 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 03:49 AM

(you hate the average Wehrmacht soldier who was sent by his country and fulfilled his pledge? my friend you are one of a kind. My uncle fought the Nazis and he has respect for that military and the people who served in it even though they could have killed him.)

you can't reply to what I just said can you.

Slipdigit · #21 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmonMauser

you hate the average Wehrmacht soldier who was sent by his country and fulfilled his pledge? my friend you are one of a kind. My uncle fought the Nazis and he has respect for that military and the people who served in it even though they could have killed him.

I and most of the members of this forum would like to meet your uncle. I reiterate, it is not your uncle's service that we have no respect for, it is the government he served that we have no respect for.

bigfun · #22 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 04:00 AM

The "average" soldier and the "Nazi" were two completely different things, which I think you fail to see.

JCFalkenbergIII · #23 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 04:01 AM

" I hate the Nazis. And I have the highest respect for the German people. I can sepearte the two. Unlike some others who can't. And it is the site owner's policy to not allow people who have names containing the names of Hitler and other prominent Nazis or the word Nazi. 99% of the time those who do have member names containing such are "Discharged" from this site. And for good reason."

Don't be putting words in people mouths. Nowhere have I EVER said I hated any solider serving in the Wehrmacht. Not once here even by someone else that I can remember. Nice try though. As I have said I respect the German People and that includes the Werhmacht. I hate the Nzai party and everything it stood for and those who willingly and knowingly followed its perverted policies and crimes. Because you cannot get passed your bias or handle the idea that not all share your views you have to try and make it look like everyone else is. Pathetic and really quite childish.

~~AmonMauser~~ · #24 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigfun

The "average" soldier and the "Nazi" were two completely different things, which I think you fail to see.

assumptions, nothing more.

Otto · #25 (**permalink**) December 6th, 2008, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmonMauser

(you hate the average Wehrmacht soldier who was sent by his country and fulfilled his pledge? my friend you are one of a kind. My uncle fought the Nazis and he has respect for that military and the people who served in it even though they could have killed him.)

you can't reply to what I just said can you.

Take it easy there DarkIce. No need to be belligerent here, if anything this is a slightly pro-German group. Take it easy