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What If? Alternate History: Speculate about WWII battles that never were. Could the Axis have won? What if Hitler had the bomb?

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Old October 3rd, 2000, 10:23 PM
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The Aniversary of this Ilfated Operation what could the Germans have done to better prepare this operation to have been a success?

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Old October 5th, 2000, 05:43 AM
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Not gone all out for Kiev in the late summer!!
This diversion dragged Guderian's Panzergruppe 2 far to the south, forcing him to launch his attack from the Orel region, practically unsupported, thus not allowing enough pressure to be put on the defences south of Moscow. Hitler's decision to starve Leningrad into submission (Ostensibly to avoid heavy casualties trying to storm the city.) when the Germans could have practically walked in during September was also an error which cost Taufin dear.

After the offensive had failed and the Russians began to counter attack, the Germans should have been able to fall back to warm, well equipped fortifications, but the Führer refused to even countanance this, considering the suggestion "Defeatist".

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Old October 5th, 2000, 11:42 PM
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Hitler lost it after Stalingrad, they say he lost sleep and would have Nightmares all the way up until his death about his lost Army.

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Old October 10th, 2000, 12:48 PM
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History is 20/20 in hindsight, and especially if its written by German Generals.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Richard Murphy:

Not gone all out for Kiev in the late summer!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was not only in accordance to the BARBAROSSA war plan, but also perfectly in sync with any “traditional” strategy goal of destroying the enemies’ forces. Going for Moscow (which was only, if even, a secondary target) with an open southern flank was realized as being too dangerous.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
After the offensive had failed and the Russians began to counter attack, the Germans should have been able to fall back to warm, well equipped fortifications,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...which couldn’t have been built exactly because of TYPHOON. The transport capacity was a given, unchangeable parameter. German General staff decided to transport ammunition and fuel instead of winter equipment, and to let his soldiers run against Moscow instead of building defensive lines. Again, this wasn’t Hitler’s fault, but those of German Officers, namely Halder.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
..but the Führer refused to even countanance this, considering the suggestion "Defeatist".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It’s commonly accepted that Hitler’s “No retreat”-order saved AGC in December 1941. German troops showed signs of panic, and there wasn’t a defensive line to fell back to.
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Old October 10th, 2000, 05:49 PM
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IMHO "no retreat" in december 1941 was a good strategy for Germans. It most certainly was not in december 1942...
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